Rome vs. America, and the sustainability of Western culture.

[ipete23]

While I was at school, my history teacher once gave us an essay to write on the similarities between America and the Roman Empire just before it’s fall. Baring in mind how history tends to repeat itself, he was obviously asking us the question: Is America on a slow and steady demise, and will it ultimately fade away from the global arena?
To most people this might seem a highly cynical and narrow-minded line of thought, but might there be something to it?

Upon first comparison there are some definite similarities between these two societies that can be pointed out. Firstly the way in which both powerhouses insisted on imposing themselves upon the rest of the world. Rome ruled virtually all of the “known world” at its heyday, imposing their societal structure and way of living on may different cultures.
In the same way America insists on other cultures doing things their way. This, perhaps proven best, by the recent war in Iraq.

Another similarity would be the importance that is laid upon being Roman or American. A Roman had distinctly different rights to the peoples that they ruled, and in the later stages of the Empire, Romans didn’t even fight in their own army, because it was seen as better to pay the conquered peoples to fight on their behalf.
Similarly an American life seems to be worth a great deal more than that of other nationalities. It’s worth reminding ourselves that it only took around four thousand Americans to die to throw the world into a global war against terrorism. Yet even after 800 000 Rwandans died in the ’94 massacre, nothing much happened.

Yes, there are more similarities, and yes, there are probably good theories as to why America will never go down the same road as Rome did. The fact of the matter is still this: that America is the most hated nation in the world, just as Rome was, and that it would take considerable resilience to keep up their global order for ever. The apple cart that is global politics can easily be upset, and America’s control over it may someday change considerably.

What are your opinions on the matter?

[Warsai]

Interesting topic. I agree. You basically hit many of the points as to why the two our similar. The way we impose our society, another example would be the Cold War and the wars we fought against communism. Vietnam, Korea, etc. The far right-wing politicians in America used the collapse of the Soviet Union to back up the idea that capitalist democracy was the best government you could have. Our many totalitarian acts today in other countries make us even more similar. But like you said, and as it has been proven many times in history, a superpower that powerful cannot exist forever.

[Serenity]

hmmmm..... now this is a golden thread.

It is becoming more and more apparent of the similarities between Rome and America, and it is said in the bible that america is the last super-power the world will know.

WHere i'm worried about america's demise , is what comes from the east. With the asias becoming ever so populated and enhancing their quality of life to meet those of the western world, is where i see the tip of the totter coming down.

I don't think we have to worry about an overthrow of idealism, such as what was mentioned about "democracy vs. communism" for the global mentality has definitely been persauded by captialism.....it's now merely a power-struggle for who control the pastry to make the pie.

This is something where i'd like someone else's view- it used to be a concern of man-power. In WW2 we had to depleat 6 asians to 1 causasian. That ratio is significantly higher today...but let's go one stage further, for technology has led us to weapons of destruction that don't weigh in the balance numbers of people , so much as tons of explosionary terminal force.
still...this argument of "force" is only relevant should nations go to war.

I think we're past that stage now. Why i think this, is due to the visions of the CFR and the UN and plans to move towards a One world Govt.
Could it be that we won't so much see one super power overcome by another through identity of nations, so much as we'll see all nations under one rule, with the real similarity to rome, being that of a modern day hierarchy of classes once again?

[plazul]

Originally Posted by ipete23

While I was at school, my history teacher once gave us an essay to write on the similarities between America and the Roman Empire just before it’s fall. Baring in mind how history tends to repeat itself, he was obviously asking us the question: Is America on a slow and steady demise, and will it ultimately fade away from the global arena?
To most people this might seem a highly cynical and narrow-minded line of thought, but might there be something to it?

Upon first comparison there are some definite similarities between these two societies that can be pointed out. Firstly the way in which both powerhouses insisted on imposing themselves upon the rest of the world. Rome ruled virtually all of the “known world” at its heyday, imposing their societal structure and way of living on may different cultures.
In the same way America insists on other cultures doing things their way. This, perhaps proven best, by the recent war in Iraq.

Another similarity would be the importance that is laid upon being Roman or American. A Roman had distinctly different rights to the peoples that they ruled, and in the later stages of the Empire, Romans didn’t even fight in their own army, because it was seen as better to pay the conquered peoples to fight on their behalf.
Similarly an American life seems to be worth a great deal more than that of other nationalities. It’s worth reminding ourselves that it only took around four thousand Americans to die to throw the world into a global war against terrorism. Yet even after 800 000 Rwandans died in the ’94 massacre, nothing much happened.

Yes, there are more similarities, and yes, there are probably good theories as to why America will never go down the same road as Rome did. The fact of the matter is still this: that America is the most hated nation in the world, just as Rome was, and that it would take considerable resilience to keep up their global order for ever. The apple cart that is global politics can easily be upset, and America’s control over it may someday change considerably.

What are your opinions on the matter?

I don't think you can compare American hegemony to Roman rule. Rome kept its empire for as long as it did because it allowed religious freedom, open citizenship to those who could afford it, and it ruthlessly crushed dissent, often lining Roman roads with crosses on which crucified rebels were hung as an example for the general public. Except for the occasional rebellion and brush fire war, the world enjoyed the longest period of peace in history under Roman domination.

Many people think that self indulgent hedonism and extreme moral decay were the catalysts for the fall of Rome, and if you look at it like that American society has some similarities.

[ipete23]

Originally Posted by plazul

...the world enjoyed the longest period of peace in history under Roman domination.

I have to agree with you here, Rome was very successfull in what it did, and I think that in this regard some comparisons with America should also be made.
Even though things like Vietnam and the wars in Iraq, on the whole America has lead the world into being a reasoneably stable and safe place. I don't think humanity would have been in a better situation if any other particular nation dominated the world, so maybe we do have something to be grateful for.

[plazul]

As the only remaining superpower America does have an important role to play in the peace keeping process but we differ from ancient Rome because we have made great sacrafices in blood and treasure to *liberate* other nations, as opposed to conquering them.

But we didn't do it alone. The United States must work in cooperation with the United Nations, in spite of its shortcommings, on preserving world peace and promoting regime change in rogue nations run by tyrannical dictators. If we alienate the international community the world will be even more unstable and war will be more likely.

Pax Americana implies that America, not the international community, will call the shots in creating a new world order.

[jayboy]

What will the center of the universe do if the blood and guts of America becomes just another also ran. Our conspicuous spending, life stile and charity, is why other Nations hate us but also strive to be like us. If here is no carrot on a stick for others to pursue what will the world population become. Most of us need direction, but that direction must be rational and progressive. Who would take our place in this roll?

I know a little guy with a toga, pony tail, some body jewelry, a few tattoos and a fiddle, which he is now tuning and getting ready to play.

[gmc]

"What will the center of the universe do if the blood and guts of America becomes just another also ran. Our conspicuous spending, life stile and charity, is why other Nations hate us but also strive to be like us. If here is no carrot on a stick for others to pursue what will the world population become. Most of us need direction, but that direction must be rational and progressive. Who would take our place in this roll?"

One of the things I find americans unable to understand is that it is not americans per se that are disliked but the policies pursued by your government in your name. You seem to take any criticism of your government as being aimed at america as a nation and as being a personal attack. It is not

I am new to this forum and this is my first post. One of the attractions is an opportunity to "speak" to normal americans so I would like to make it clear I am not out to offend anybody i wish to hear others views. I find this kind of stuff fascinating and welcome the chance to comminicate to the other side of the globe where it's probably sunny. It's summer here but its rained all week, currently its bouncing off the grass.

I am curious as to what you make of this lot.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Have a look at the signatories and see where they are now. When i first heard about them I thought it was some daft conspiracy theory bit I heck things out myself. On the face of it your government has been taken over by a bucnch of right wing nutters determined to follow their own interests-interpreting them as being synonymous with those of the american people. Your media is in the hands of a few big corporation that stifle political debate and analysis. If you look at the ill judged attempt to stop the release of Michael Moore's film. What ever you may think of him, and he has his own agenda, in the land of free speech should you not be allowed to say what you think without being censored or called unpatriotic? In the UK people can take up an anti war stance and those who called them unpatriotic get short thrift. slagging off the government in power is a national sport.

What is different between rome and the US is that the US is a democracy Rome was not-although it was a republic before it became an empire if Bush goes for emperor maybe you should worry. Americans seem insular in their attittude to the rest of the world but I doubt if they want to rule it, nor will you just follow blindly what a politician tells you-at least not for long

You have a law that bars a president holding more than two terms of office so no matter what things will change in four years time.

You need the rest of the world far more than you want to admit, any drop in the supply of oil would have a catastrophic effect on your economy but I just find it hard to credit you will tolerate invading the middle east to preserve your oil supplies. An empire would, a democracy has to persuade its citizens to fight a war.

If we alienate the international community the world will be even more unstable and war will be more likely.

You have alienated then and large sections are worried about what you will do next.

[plazul]

I realize that we have offended many nations but I don't think we have totally alientated our European allies. But if Bush is given another term relations may be strained to the breaking point.

American's are somewhat insular to the sensitivities of the rest of the world and most of us don't get much international news that doesn't directly impact American interests. We are a multicultural society made up of many ethnic groups but we don't get as much exposure to the culture of other countries as you do in Europe so that gives us a rather parochial world view.

You Brits are certainly not immune to the hidden persuaders in the corporate world. And though you have a more engaging political system with your parliamentary government I'm not sure that your citizenry participates in the political process any more than Americans. Do they? What percentage of British citizens voted in the last national election? As I see it, most Brits get their politics from the tabloids and aren't any more educated than we Yanks on the real issues.

You have the BBC but we have NPR, CPB, and a wide variety of alternative news sources. Too bad that most Americans get all their news from the major networks but anybody who wants to can get an objective look at the international news of the day.

I disagree when you say that it isn't Americans who are disliked, just their government. Any American traveler will tell you that nowadays they get hostile remarks from Europeans who behave as though average Americans have a say in foreign policy.

Welcome to FG.

[gmc]

You Brits are certainly not immune to the hidden persuaders in the corporate world. And though you have a more engaging political system with your parliamentary government I'm not sure that your citizenry participates in the political process any more than Americans. Do they? What percentage of British citizens voted in the last national election? As I see it, most Brits get there politics from the tabloids and aren't any more educated than we Yanks on the real issues.

Very true, but its indifference rather than disinterest but when the issues matter enough they tend to make their views clear. Also I think we are a bit more cynical about our politicians than americans, you seem to identify more closely with your president than we do with our government. A criticism of our government is not taken as being aimed also at the british people. The tabloids are read for their page three and the sport and gossip than their substance, people are eclectic in their reading than you would think

We seem to have more analysis and documentary style investigation than you do-although I will concede CNN and cnbc and an occasional read of time magazine and the los angeles times are hardly a representative sample of your media.

There are also problems with our first past the post system in that it does not reflect the real make up of political attitides in the country. Currently less than 48% of the vote was for tony blair, it was roughly the same proprtion with the tories. Neither of the big parties wants proportional representation as it would change the make up of british politics and they like being in power too much. We have MP's more interested in staying in parliament than using their common sense and a move away from parliamentary democracy over the last thirty or so years that is quite depressing and imo not for he good. TB does not have presidential type powers and needs to be reminded that he doesn't.

I am still curious about what you think about pnac, in another age it would be a statement of imperial aims, but who rules? the people or vested interests who only get away with it so long as they are allowed to.

Any American traveler will tell you that nowadays they get hostile remarks from Europeans who behave as though average Americans have a say in foreign policy.

Does not every vote count? You could say much the same about us couldn't you. Actually being mistaken for English is not funny at all