IsmaEL was not an Arabic

[iesous]

Believing that some readers would like to know who are the "Arabes" and why their language is not hebrew as that of the sons of Abraam, I copy for you part of a document at iesousxristosDOTbravehostDOTcom/factisfactDOThtml [put . instead of DOT]

Ismael was not Arabe but he was as Hebrew as Isaak:

Genesis 17:24-27 And Abraam was ninety–nine years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. And Ismael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. And at the period of that day, Abraam was circumcised, and Ismael his son, and all the men of his house, both those born in the house, and those bought with money of foreign nations.

Genesis 21:12-13 But Theos said to Abraam, Let it not be hard before thee concerning the child, and concerning the bondwoman; in all things whatsoever Sarra shall say to thee, hear her voice, for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. And moreover I will make the son of this bondwoman A great nation, because he is thy seed.

Genesis 25:7-9 And these were the years of the days of the life of Abraam as many as he lived, a hundred and seventy–five years. And Abraam failing died in a good old age, an old man and full of days, and was added to his people. And Isaac and Ismael his sons buried him in the double cave, in the field of Ephron the son of Saar the Xettite, which is over against Mambre..

EL spoke to Agar, Ismael's Mother, in perfect Hebrew:

17:13 And she called the name of the Lord EL who spoke to her, Thou art EL who seest me; for she said, For I have openly seen him that appeared to me. Therefore she called the well, The well of him whom I have openly seen; behold it is between Cades and Barad.

Ismael was proud of having in him the name of El:

17:11 And the angel of the Lord said to her, Behold thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ismael, for the Lord hath hearkened to thy humiliation.

EL was friend of Ismael and blessed him a lot:

17:20 And concerning Ismael, behold, I have heard thee, and, behold, I have blessed him, and will increase him and multiply him exceedingly; twelve nations shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Ismael, the first son of Abraam never changed his HEBREW name, he kept it as a divine seal: "EL LISTEN ME"

Genesis 25:17 And these are the years of the life of Ismael, a hundred and thirty–seven years; and he failed and died, and was added to his family.

At that time Isaak was 123 years old and Iakob 63 years old, 45 years later Ioseph was sold by their brothers, and 22 years later Iakob entered Egypt

AR AB IAH

In order to know who are the Arabians let's read some old records:

Josephus Antiquities [210] He put him in mind, that when Abraam was come alone out of Mesopotamia into Xanaan, he had been made happy, not only in other respects, but that when his wife was at first barren, she was afterwards by him enabled to conceive seed, and bare him sons. That he left to Ismael and to his posterity the country of Arabia; as also to his sons by Katouras, Troglodutis; and to Isaak, Xanaan.

(This means that "the country of Arabia" already existed)

Antiquities of the Jews [220] When the lad was grown up, he married a wife, by birth an Aiguptian, from whence the mother was herself derived originally. Of this wife were born to Ismael twelve sons; Nabaioth, Kedar, Abdeel, Massam, Idoumas, Masmas, Masmes, Xodad, Theman, Ietour, Naphaisos, Kadmas. These inhabited all the country from Euphrates to the Red Sea, and called it Nabatene. They are an Arabian nation, and name their tribes from these, both because of their own virtue, and because of the dignity of Abraam their father.

(At this point of time they were called Nabatene)

The book of the jubilees, 11-13 And he gave to Ishmael and to his sons, and to the sons of Katouras, gifts, and sent them away from Isaak his son, and he gave everything to Isaak his son. And Ishmael and his sons, and the sons of Katouras and their sons, went together and dwelt from Paran to the entering in of Babulon in all the land which is towards the East facing the desert. And these mingled with each other, and their name was called Arabs, AND Ishmaelites.

(this means that at this point the ismaelites were not arabs)

Antiquities of the Jews [238] Abraam after this married Katouras, by whom six sons were born to him, men of courage, and of sagacious minds: Zembran, and Iazar, and Madan, and Madian, and Louosoubak, and Souos. Now the sons of Souos were Sabakin and Dadan. The sons of Dadan were Latousim, and Assour, and Louour. The sons of Madanou were Ephas, and Eophren, and Anox, and Ebidas, and Eldas. Now, for all these sons and grandsons, Abraam contrived to settle them in colonies; and they took possession of Troglodutis, and the country of Arabia the Happy, as far as it reaches to the Red Sea.

Antiquities of the Jews [254] but when he had learned beforehand what plots there were against him, he went away privately; and because the public roads were watched, he took his flight through the deserts, and where his enemies could not suspect he would travel; and, though he was destitute of food, he went on, and despised that difficulty courageously; and when he came to the city Madian, which lay upon the Red Sea, and was so denominated from one of Abraham's sons by Katouras, he sat upon a certain well, and rested himself there after his laborious journey, and the affliction he had been in. It was not far from the city, and the time of the day was noon, where he had an occasion offered him by the custom of the country of doing what recommended his virtue, and afforded him an opportunity of bettering his circumstances.




Antiquities of the Jews [32] Ioudas de kai autos ôn tôn Iakôbou paidôn emporous idôn Arabas tou Ismaêlitôn genous arômata kai Sura phortia komizontas Aiguptiois ek tês Galadênês meta tên anachôrêsin tên Rhoubêlou tois adelphois sunebouleuen animêsasi ton Iôsêpon apempolêsai tois Arapsin:

[32] But Ioudas, being one of Iacob's sons also, seeing some Arabas, of the posterity of Ismael, carrying spices and Sura wares out of the land of Galad to the Aiguptians, after Roubel was gone, advised his brethren to draw Ioseph out of the pit, and sell him to the Arapsin; for if he should die among strangers a great way off, they should be freed from this barbarous action.

Canaanite City-States

(At this point Josephus didn't used the Arabians but Arabas and Arapsin)

Antiquities of the Jews [159] Now Moses sent an army against the land of Madian, for the causes forementioned, in all twelve thousand, taking an equal number out of every tribe, and appointed Phinees for their commander; of which Phinees we made mention a little before, as he that had guarded the laws of the Hebrews, and had inflicted punishment on Zambrian when he had transgressed them. Now the Madianites perceived beforehand how the Hebrews were coming, and would suddenly be upon them: so they assembled their army together, and fortified the entrances into their country, and there awaited the enemy's coming. When they were come, and they had joined battle with them, an immense multitude of the Madianites fell; nor could they be numbered, they were so very many: and among them fell all their kings, five in number, viz. Oxos, Sour, Robe, Our, and Rekem, who was of the same name with a city, the chief and capital of all Arabia, which is still now so called by the whole Arabian nation, Rekem, from the name of the king that built it; but is by the Greeks called Petra.

3:3: 5. In the limits of Samaria and Judea lies the village Anuath, which is also named Borceos. This is the northern boundary of Ioudea. The southern parts of Judea, if they be measured lengthways, are bounded by a Village adjoining to the confines of Arabia; the Jews that dwell there call it Jordan. However, its breadth is extended from the river Jordan to Joppa. The city Jerusalem is situated in the very middle; on which account some have, with sagacity enough, called that city the Navel of the country. Nor indeed is Ioudea destitute of such delights as come from the sea, since its maritime places extend as far as Ptolemais: it was parted into eleven portions, of which the royal city Ierosoluma was the supreme, and presided over all the neighboring country, as the head does over the body. As to the other cities that were inferior to it, they presided over their several toparchies; Gophna was the second of those cities, and next to that Acrabatta, after them Thamna, and Ludda, and Emmaus, and Pella, and Idoumea, and Engaddi, and Herodium, and Jerixo; and after them came Jamnia and Joppa, as presiding over the neighboring people; and besides these there was the region of Gamala, and Gaulonitis, and Batanea, and Traxonitis, which are also parts of the kingdom of Agrippa. This [last] country begins at Mount Libanus, and the fountains of Jordan, and reaches breadthways to the lake of Tiberias; and in length is extended from a village called Arpha, as far as Julias. Its inhabitants are a mixture of Jews and Surians. And thus have I, with all possible brevity, described the country of Ioudea, and those that lie round about it.

14:13: 9..... But he took with him those that were the least encumbered, and were most intimate with him, and came to the fortress, and placed there his wives and his followers, being eight hundred in number, there being in the place a sufficient quantity of corn and water, and other necessaries, and went directly for Petra, in Arabia.

Esau made his family among the Xanaanites and Ismael:

Antiquities of the Jews [265] Now when Esau, one of the sons of Isaal, whom the father principally loved, was now come to the age of forty years, he married Adah, the daughter of Helon, and Alibamah, the daughter of Eusebeon; which Helon and Eusebeon were great lords among the Xanaanites: thereby taking upon himself the authority, and pretending to have dominion over his own marriages, without so much as asking the advice of his father; for had Isaak been the arbitrator, he had not given him leave to marry thus, for he was not pleased with contracting any alliance with the people of that country; but not caring to be uneasy to his son by commanding him to put away these wives, he resolved to be silent.

[276] Now the mother delivered Iakob, when she was afraid that his brother would inflict some punishment upon him because of the mistake about the prayers of Isaak; for she persuaded her husband to take a wife for Iacob out of Mesopotamia, of her own kindred, Esau having married already Basemmath, the daughter of Ismael, without his father's consent; for Isaac did not like the Xanaanites, so that he disapproved of Esau's former marriages, which made him take Basemmath to wife, in order to please him; and indeed he had a great affection for her.

Some names of the children of Ismael reveal that the Ismaelites became Xanaanites:

Inscription of Marseilles

"The temple of Baal . . . Account of the payments fixed by those set over the payments, in the time of our lords, Halats-Baal, the Suffes, the son of Abd-Tanith, the son of Abd-Esmun, and of Halats-Baal, the Suffes, the son of Abd-Esmun, the son of Halts-Baal, and of their colleagues:--
Inscription of Um-El-Awamid

"To the lord Baal-Shamaôm, [the vow] which was vowed by Abdelim, son of Mattan, son of Abdelim, son of Baal-Shomar, of the district of Laodicea. This gateway and doors did I make in fulfilment of it. I built it in the 180th year of the Lord of Kings, and in the 143rd year of the people of Tyre, that it might be to me a memorial and for a good name beneath the feet of my lord, Baal-Shamaôm, for ever. May he bless me!"
Inscription on a Cippus from Carthage

"To the lady Tanith, and to our master, the lord Baal-Hammon; the offerer is Abd-Melkarth, the Suffes, son of Abd-Melkarth, son of Hanno."
Inscription on a Marble Tablet Found in Cyprus

"On the seventh day of the month . . . in the thirty-first year of the Lord of Kings, PtolemÊus, son of PtolemÊus . . . which was the fifty- seventh year of the Citians, when Amarat-Osiri, daughter of . . . son of Abd-Susim, of Gad'ath, was /canephora/ of Asinoî Philadelphus, these statues were set up by Bathshalun, daughter of Maryichai, son of Esmunadon, to the memory of his grandsons, Esmunadon, Shallum, and Abd-Reseph, the three sons of Maryichai, son of Esmunadon, according to the vow which their father, Maryichai, vowed, when he was still alive, to their lord, Reseph-Mikal. May he bless them!"

nabataeaDOTnet/write3DOThtml

In the Sinai there are names including some element of the god Ba'al, such as Ushba'al (gift of Ba'al), Garm'alba'ali (Ba'al has decided), Thaim'-alba'ali (servant of Ba'al), and so on. None of these composite names occurs in any other Arabian language. There are also a couple of Ba'al names from Petra. Ba'al names are not found in the other Nabataean regions. Thus Ba'al was worshiped in the Sinai, (and from the Biblical records of history, in Palestine.)

Another god was 'Allah (perhaps a later expression of Allat). This was sometimes written as 'Illah. Some of the Nabataean names were: 'Aush'allah (Allah's faith), 'Amat-'allahi (she is a servant of Allah), Hab-allahi (beloved of Allah), Han-allahi (Allah is gracious), Abd'allah (slave of God), and Shalm-lahi (Allah is peace). The name Wahab-allah is found throughout the entire Nabataean region and means gift of Allah.

In that very small amount of time the children of Ismael were not a country at all

Genesis 37:25-28 And they sat down to eat bread; and having lifted up their eyes they beheld, and lo, Ismaelitish travellers came from Galaad, and their camels were heavily loaded with spices, and resin, and myrrh; and they went to bring them to Egypt. And Ioudas said to his brethren, What profit is it if we slay our brother, and conceal his blood? Come, let us sell him to these Ismaelites, but let not our hands be upon him, because he is our brother and our flesh; and his brethren hearkened. And the Madianites sold Ioseph into Egypt; to Petephres, the eunuch of Pharao, captain of the guard. And the men, the merchants of Madian, went by, and they drew and lifted Ioseph out of the pit, and sold Ioseph to the Ismaelites for twenty pieces of gold; and they brought Ioseph down into Egypt.
...

Idoumaian Whence it came, that, on account of the redness of this pottage, he was, in way of jest, by his contemporaries, called Adom, for the Hebrews call what is red Adom; and this was the name given to the country; but the Greeks gave it a more agreeable pronunciation, and named it Idoumaian

Arabia and Petra were habitated by wicked giants:

Genesis 14: 5 And in the fourteenth year came Chodollogomor, and the kings with him, and cut to pieces the giants in Astaroth, and Carnain, and strong nations with them, and the Ommaeans in the city Save. And the Chorrhaeans in the mountains of Seir, to the turpentine tree of Pharan, which is in the desert. And having turned back they came to the well of judgment; this is Cades, and they cut in pieces all the princes of Amalec, and the Amorites dwelling in Asasonthamar.

Deuteronomy 2:1 And we turned and departed into the wilderness, by the way of the Red Sea, as the Lord spoke to me, and we compassed mount Seir many days. And the Lord said to me, Ye have compassed this mount long enough; turn therefore toward the north. And charge the people, saying, Ye are going through the borders of your brethren the children of Esau, who dwell in Seir; and they shall fear you, and dread you greatly. Do not engage in war against them, for I will not give you of their land even enough to set your foot upon, for I have given mount Seir to the children of Esau as an inheritance.

6 Buy food of them for money and eat, and ye shall receive water of them by measure for money, and drink. For the Lord our God has blessed thee in every work of thy hands. Consider how thou wentest through that great and terrible wilderness: behold, the Lord thy God has been with thee forty years; thou didst not lack any thing. And we passed by our brethren the children of Esau, who dwelt in Seir, by the way of Araba from Ælon and from Gesion Gaber; and we turned and passed by the way of the desert of Moab. And the Lord said to me, Do not ye quarrel with the Moabites, and do not engage in war with them; for I will not give you of their land for an inheritance, for I have given Aroer to the children of Lot to inherit. Formerly the Ommin dwelt in it, a great and numerous nation and powerful, like the Enakim. These also shall be accounted Raphain like the Enakim; and the Moabites call them Ommin. And the Xorrite dwelt in Seir before, and the sons of Esau destroyed them, and utterly consumed them from before them; and they dwelt in their place, as Israel did to the land of his inheritance, which the Lord gave to them. Now then, arise ye, said I, and depart, and cross the valley of Zaret. And the days in which we traveled from Cades Barne till we crossed the valley of Zaret, were thirty and eight years, until the whole generation of the men of war failed, dying out of the camp, as the Lord God sware to them. And the hand of the Lord was upon them to destroy them out of the midst of the camp, until they were consumed. And it came to pass when all the men of war dying out of the midst of the people had fallen, that the Lord spoke to me, saying,

18 Thou shalt pass over this day the borders of Moab to Aroer; and ye shall draw nigh to the children of Amman: do not quarrel with them, nor wage war with them; for I will not give thee of the land of the children of Amman for an inheritance, because I have given it to the children of Lot for an inheritance. It shall be accounted a land of Raphain, for the Raphain dwelt there before, and the Ammanites call them Zochommin. A great nation and populous, and mightier than you, as also the Enakim: yet the Lord destroyed them from before them, and they inherited their land, and they dwelt there instead of them until this day. As they did to the children of Esau that dwell in Seir, even as they destroyed the Chorrhite from before them, and inherited their country, and dwelt therein instead of them until this day. And the Evites who dwell in Asedoth to Gaza, and the Cappadocians who came out of Cappadocia, destroyed them, and dwelt in their room.

Deuteronomy 3:11 For only Og the king of Basan was left of the Raphain: behold, his bed was a bed of iron; behold, it is in the chief city of the children of Ammon; the length of it is nine cubits, and the breadth of it four cubits, according to the cubit of a man. And we inherited that land at that time from Aroer, which is by the border of the torrent Arnon, and half the mount of Galaad; and I gave his cities to Ruben and to Gad. And the rest of Galaad, and all Basan the kingdom of Og I gave to the half–tribe of Manasse, and all the country round about Argob, all that Basan; it shall be accounted the land of Raphain.

They Captured the wicked customs of those Canaanite people

Numbers 22:41 And it was morning; and Balac took Balaam, and brought him up to the pillar of Baal, and shewed him thence a part of the people.

5 And Moses said to the tribes of Israel, Slay ye every one his friend that is consecrated to Beel–phegor.

2 Kings 23:13 And the king defiled the house that was before Jerusalem, on the right hand of the mount of Mosthath, which Solomon king of Israel built to Astarte the abomination of the Sidonians, and to Chamos the abomination of Moab, and to Moloch the abomination of the children of Ammon.

The children of Ismael had feminine customs:

Judges 8:24 And Gedeon said to them, I will make a request of you, and do ye give me every man an earring out of his spoils: for they had golden earrings, for they were Ismaelites. And they said, we will certainly give them: and he opened his garment, and each man cast therein an earring of his spoils. And the weight of the golden earrings which he asked, was a thousand and seven hundred pieces of gold, besides the crescents, and the chains, and the garments, and the purple cloths that were on the kings of Madiam, and besides the chains that were on the necks of their camels.

There some graphs and links in the cited document where are shown the "arabic" Sexual Aaberration

[Ted]

iesous

When you are copying down a URL if you put < immediately in front of the URL and > immediately at the end it will come up with a line under it and all one then has to do is right click on it and they will go automatically to the site. It just helps others to follow what you are saying more easily. Thanks.

http://www.torreys.org/bible/
Resource Pages for Biblical Studies, main page

It will have the same effect as the one above.

What you have listed is very interesting. However, it is basically the ancient myths that were passed on orally for centuries before they were recorded. In good scholarship there is doubt that Abraham existed as written up. There may have been someone named Abraham or by another name.

The existence of Moses is even questionable.

As for the giants spoken of in Genesis they are pure myth. They never existed. It is ancient myth used to explain certain events and to convey truths. Something does not have to be historically accurate to present truth. This has been will known among teachers for centuries.

Shalom
Ted

[iesous]

Originally Posted by Ted

When you are copying down a URL if you put < immediately in front of the URL and > immediately at the end it will come up with a line under it and all one then has to do is right click on it and they will go automatically to the site. It just helps others to follow what you are saying more easily. Thanks.

wwwDOTtorreysDOTorg/bible/
Resource Pages for Biblical Studies, main page

It will have the same effect as the one above.

Dear Ted, according to rules of this forum I can not post links untill I reach 15 post.

About the Myths, schools of wisemen affirmed that the accounts of Homer about Troy and those things were pure myths, until Heinrich Schliemann shew that those wisemen were wrong, I hope you are not following those HIGH CRITIC wisemen. Schliemann has not been the unique archaeologist showing that that the real creators of myths are those HIGH CRITIC wisemen, since all of them affirmed that "SARGON" was another myth, but Paul Emil Botta shew them to be wrong; Niniveh was another myth until Layard shew that those wisemen were wrong, just to mention some few. Before the great libraries were destroyed, Josephus took notes about written books

[1:158] Berosus mentions our father Abram without naming him, when he says thus: "In the tenth generation after the Flood, there was among the Chaldeans a man righteous and great, and skillful in the celestial science." But Hecatseus does more than barely mention him; for he composed, and left behind him, a book concerning him. And Nicolaus of Damascus, in the fourth book of his History, says thus: "Abram reigned at Damascus, being a foreigner, who came with an army out of the land above Babylon, called the land of the Chaldeans: but, after a long time, he got him up, and removed from that country also, with his people, and went into the land then called the land of Canaan, but now the land of Judea, and this when his posterity were become a multitude; as to which posterity of his, we relate their history in another work. Now the name of Abram is even still famous in the country of Damascus; and there is shown a village named from him, The Habitation of Abram."

Do you have those ancient books where you can show that the passages by Josephus were no there?

[Ted]

iesous

Of course there will always be some cases like Troy. However, let us not forget that was prior to the present age of knowledge. A few cases to not prove that all the rest are also wrong. That would be totally illogical.

Most of the stories in the Bible are either myth, legend or fiction but some of them have a basis in history. For instance the flood of Noah is a legend probably based on the continual flooding of the Euphrates river. This particular story is embellished down through the centuries as oral tradition and finally comes out as a world wide flood. Scientists have shown that this did not happen.

The story of Adam and Eve is a myth borrowed from one of the other local tribes. In fact there are two creation stories in the first two chapters of Genesis. The story of the Exodus did not happen as written but came out of the story of the expulsion of the Hyksos from the Nile delta. In the case of the Exodus archaeological experts including Jewish ones have shown that there is not one shred of evidence for the Exodus as written. There is no evidence, not even one piece. The sun does not stand still for a day. It is the earth turning on its axis that makes the sun appear to rise and set. The earth did not stop turning.

If we turn to Numbers 31 we find that God apparently not only condones but encourages war crimes.

Do I listen to the so called higher critics? Folks are free to call them whatever they want. History, archaeology and science support their contentions. Archeology has clearly shown that the Exodus did not happen as recorded.

As stories get passed on orally from generation to generation the become embellished and enhanced for particular reasons. Some even get retold in a slightly different form and some mistake this for two separate events.

However, none of this is at all ultimately important. What is important is that we put our complete trust in the Divine. It is our relationship with the Divine that is important.

Shalom
Ted

[iesous]

Originally Posted by Ted

It is the earth turning on its axis that makes the sun appear to rise and set. The earth did not stop turning.

Dear Ted, in some future post I will show instrument that showa the myth of the rotating earth, I invite you to build one of them, get the followings

1. Portractor of 360º
2 - some 30 cms of transparente hose
3. silicone or some kind of glue to join the hose to the portractor
4- a small ball to be put within the hose
5. a cord to joint to the portractor

With the above elements one build a circular level which can be tied around the head - for instance - using the cord for measuring the vertical rotation of the head; but also can be tied to in a part of your car in order to see the variation of inclination of the road, and in within a plane to know when it flight in straight line or is incline. I used from Caracas -Venezuela to Lima - Peru, near 22º. The experience is recored in a page name /levelwater/levelwater.html of the server geocities.com, y you put this part together you can read the report, in the same server in the page /jesuselcristos/hoaxology.html you shoul find a lot of myth of the false science, as those of Eistein, Newton, Cavendish; please try to read them

[Ted]

iesous

The rotating earth is very easy to show. Set up a stationary camera at night and aim it at the sky. With a lengthy exposure one can see the parth the stars apparently make but this is due to the rotation of the earth. The same holds true if you aim it at the north star. The north star is stationary or appears to be so while the other stars appear to rotate. Once again the only way this can occur is if the earth is rotating.

Now if you choose to call this a myth then go for it. Perhaps the flat earth society is right after all.

Shalom
Ted

[iesous]

Originally Posted by Ted

With a lengthy exposure one can see the parth the stars apparently make but this is due to the rotation of the earth

Dear Ted, that is not science, to affirm that the true is the opposit to what you see and record. In science you must take measurements and compare them against known facts in order to avoid speculation, let's speak of numbers for a while.

1.There are two basic kind of [physical] movements: in a straight line and in a circular "line". Let's put a fixed object in a far point beyond a "watcher", while the watcher moves in the straight line, the object will be all the time within "its" visual field, but when the watcher moves in the circular line the object starts going out of its visual field, until it reaches a degree in which the obect is out of sight, can you tell us how many degrees has to rotate "the rotating watcher" in order to have the fixed object out of its visual field?

These degrees are going to be for us the "known facts" [meassurabke facts], if you don't know that then you and any other will be speculating, inventing myths ...

2. If you are at the parallel north 8º & Meridian 67º, what is the highest point (degrees) above the horizont that the southern cross can be seen?


3. If you are at Canberra - Australia, parallel south 35º, what is the highest point above the horizont that the southern cross can be seen?

4. If you are at Parallel north 20º, what is the highest point above the horizont that southern cross can be seen?

[Ted]

iesous

I really don't want to be rude so let me put it this way: each to his own. I don't accept any of what you post. It is not science it is simply an extremely limited world view which in my opinion is absurd.

Shalom
Ted