The Raven challenge!

[Raven]

Who is up to breaking out their New Testaments and having a chapter by chapter discussion on the book of Revelation?
Serious applicants only need apply!

(C'mon....help me out here....I need a diversion....BADLY!)

[telaquapacky]

Originally Posted by Raven

Who is up to breaking out their New Testaments and having a chapter by chapter discussion on the book of Revelation?
Serious applicants only need apply!

(C'mon....help me out here....I need a diversion....BADLY!)

Revelation 1:1-3
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw-- that is , the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Observations:
1. It reveals Christ. If a person doesn't know and love Jesus better after reading Revelation, they have missed the point of the book.

2. God gave it. It's God's word. It contains a lot of the words of Christ, who is God along with the Father.

3. Purpose: to show us what must take place. No whining! A lot of bad things will happen on earth leading up to the conclusion of all things. God is still in control. We don't have to worry, just trust Him no matter what happens. - Or as Jesus said in Luke 21:28, "When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

4. "The time is near." Really? Really. John wrote it almost 2000 years ago, but God evidently always wanted His people to think and act as if Christ's second coming were going to happen during their lifetimes. Might as well. Ever throughout history, it has been as close as the day you die. Also consider Matthew 24:45 and onward, where the faithful servant is always ready for his Master to return, but the wicked servant says, "My master is staying away a long time," and does wickedly.

5. Blessed is the one who reads it. Revelation is not supposed to be a "horror story." Reading it is supposed to pull back the veil that separates what is seen from what is unseen and open our eyes to spiritual things that bless us and strengthen our faith. If it scares you or makes you back away from God, you have missed the point of the book.

Raven- you're super for starting this!

[Clint]

This is an interesting read on "The Day of the lord".
http://www.lionlamb.net/pub2005.htm

[Skeeter]

Love it...!!! but the worldly 'things' might come to an end but it says World without end, Amen.....but I love the book of Revelation....and it is NOT scary but I do have a hard time with the beast with the many horns...I just am not able to grasp what countries they are talking about...I think it must be Syria but don't really know....I have never been good with geography anyhow...and they change the names of the countries and lose me now....but would welcome a study of it.sounds like fun.

Skeeter, I dont want to make excuses for Syria but why couldnt it be Britain or the US, why Syria in particular.

[telaquapacky]

Originally Posted by Skeeter

Love it...!!! but the worldly 'things' might come to an end but it says World without end, Amen.....but I love the book of Revelation....and it is NOT scary but I do have a hard time with the beast with the many horns...I just am not able to grasp what countries they are talking about...I think it must be Syria but don't really know....I have never been good with geography anyhow...and they change the names of the countries and lose me now....but would welcome a study of it.sounds like fun.

Hiya, Skeeter! Of course you know "World without end" isn't from the Bible, but is a line from the Gloria Patri, a traditional worship response:

Glory be to the Father
And to the Son
And to the Holy Ghost
As it was in the beginning
It's now and ever shall be
World without end
Amen, Amen.

The churches I worship in don't like the GP (I've heard it used once in 25 years) probably because of the words "world without end" can be a little misleading. The original intent of the words probably did not mean the world mankind has built, which certainly wasn't here "in the beginning," but rather the world of God- that is, His kingdom.

To properly understand some of the beast symbolism in Revelation, it's necessary to go back to the Book of Daniel, where beast symbolism is used in prophetic vision, followed by a clear explanation, in some cases telling which exact countries are symbolized, and others can be extrapolated from history and other clues in the text. Daniel is the Apocalypse of the Old Testament, just as Revelation is the Apocalypse of the new. You can't understand Revelation without understanding Daniel, because it lays a foundation for what is seen in Revelation. The ten-horned beast is first seen in Daniel- and vital clues are given as to it's identity. I hope we take one part of Revelation at a time and avoid getting ahead of ourselves.

[Ted]

According to Achtemeier, Green and Thompson in "Introducing the New Testament; Its Literature and Theology" the book of Revelation is actually about the Roman empire>

"In these chapters we find a vivid description of the conflict between the messianic people on the one hand and the Roman Empire and the imperial priesthood on the other. Ther are five main characters.

1) A pregnant worman "clothed with the sun" and wearing a "Crown of twelve stars"( 12:1-31 represents Israel about to give birth to her son, the Messiah.

1) The woman's son, described in the language of Psalm 2as destined to rule all nations with a rod of iron, is the Messiah, Jesus.

3) A great red dragon with seven heads, seven crowns, and ten horns, identified as "that ancient serpent. . . the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world" is defeated by the heavenly hosts. Thrown down to the earth, it pursues the woman and child. But the child is snatched to safety, and the woman is provided a place of refuge from the dragon's onslaught.

4) A beast rising out of the sea, with ten crowns and blasphemous names on its heads, on of which "seemed to have received a death blow, but its mortal wounds had been healed." As noted above, this description makes used of the Nero redivivus legend to depict not only the reigning empereor but, through him, the Roman Empire. The assertions that it received tis power and authority from the dragon indicates the ultimately demonic character of Rome's oppressive and self-agrandizing power.

5) A beast that comes from the earth and tries to make people venerate the first.beast represents those who participate in the cult of the emperor, particularly in the eastern part of the empire where the seven churches of chs. 2-3 were located. "The mark of the beast" (13:17-18) is given to those who fall prey to the strictures of those who insist on veneration of the emperor as a condition for civil peace." p 581-582.

Shalom
Ted

[Skeeter]

shoot...I am so far out classed in any of these discussions that I will simply read and listen a lot...and hopefully learn something by keeping my mouth shut. thanks a lot anyhow.

[Raven]

Skeeter, we are all in the same boat. You are never outclassed as long as you stick to the book. And your ideas and thoughts along with your participation are required for all of us to learn something. Thats the point of the thread!

Ted, we're discussing what the scriptures say. Not what someone else wrote about them, but what THE SCRIPTURES say.

"Blessed are the people who hear this message, and do what is written in it. The time is near when all of this will happen."

This is the only book that comes with such a blessing! At the end it comes with a curse on those who try to change the wording of it! I dont know about you guys, but that makes this book pretty special to me.

Jesus Himself, gives an account of what MUST come to pass shortly. The poor little fella is on a prison island called Patmos. Funny that, God visits messages and visions throughout the bible on folks who are imprisoned for their faith.

But John seems quite explicit in telling us that this message is for His SERVANTS!
But what about the seven letters to the churches? They certainly werent the largest and most well known centers of the faith at that time. But they all had certain characteristics of the modern day church in them already. But why the letters first? Before the opening of the scroll. Does this represent the age of grace for the church? All throughout the book, God gives man chance after chance to repent of his wickedness. It clearly shows alot of mercy before judgement.

First Letter:
From John,
To the seven churches in the country of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from the One who Is, and WAS and is coming,
and from the seven Spirits before His throne, and from Jesus Christ.
Jesus is the faithful witness, the first among those raised from the dead.
He is the ruler of the kings of the earth.
He is the one who loves us, who made us free from our sins with the blood of His death. He made us to be a kingdom of priests who serve God His Father.
To Jesus Christ be glory and power forever and ever! Amen.

Look, Jesus is coming with the clouds, and everyone will see Him, even those who stabbed Him. And ALL peoples of the earth will cry loudly because of Him. Yes, this will happen! Amen.

The Lord GOD says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega. I am the who Is and Was and is coming. I am the Almighty."

I, John, am your brother. All of us share with Christ in suffering, in the kingdom, and in the patience to continue. I was on the island of Patmos, because I had preached the Word of God, and the message about Jesus. On the Lords day, I was in the Spirit, and I heard a loud voice behind me that sounded like a trumpet. The voice said, "Write what you see in a book, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicia."

I turned to see who was talking to me. When I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands and someone among the lampstands who was 'like a son of man'.
He was dressed in a long robe and had a gold band around his chest. His head and hair were like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like flames of fire. His feet were like bronze that glows hot in a furnace, and his voice was like the noise of flooding water. He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp double edged sword came out of his mouth. He looked like the sun shining at its brightest time.

When I saw him, I fell down at his feet like a dead man. He put his right hand on me and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys to death and to the place of the dead. So write the things you see, what is now, and what will happen later. Here is the secret of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and the seven golden lampstands:
The seven lampstands are the seven churches, and the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches."

[telaquapacky]

Forging ahead, Raven. I hope no one objects to me plodding along verse by verse. There are lots of hidden gems along the way.

Skeeter, parts of Revelation are over all our heads. Pretty soon I will be in over mine. Don't hesitate to share your thoughts.

Ted, I identify with much of what you've said so far. The scholar in you wants to give all the references, and go ahead if you want to. I'm sharing what I'm thinking about it wherever it comes from. We all get things from a variety of sources- it's what we retain that matters to us.

Revelation 1:4,5a
John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth...

Background:
John was in exile on island of Patmos when he wrote Revelation. All the other apostles had passed away. Roman law demanded that the goddess Roma, personifying the empire, and the emperor himself, be worshipped as gods. This the Christians and Jews would not do. So the Church, now in the second generation, faced the greatest external threat it had ever known, and needed a new revelation of Jesus Christ.

Revelation is a NT companion book to the OT book of Daniel. The first parallel is the condition of the Church at the time of John’s exile compared to the situation Daniel’s three compatriots confronted in Daniel chapter 3, where the emperor of Babylon commanded all his subjects to worship a golden image representing the empire, and his never-ending reign. Daniel’s friends refused, and faced death in a fiery furnace. The visions God gave to John in Revelation provided the Christians encouragement in their own burning trials. They were no doubt drawn to the Book of Daniel, which contains keys to decipher some of the symbolism in Revelation.

The Christians in John’s time found the book as relevant and exciting as Christians do today. In some ways they understood it better than we do, because they lived the experience of a persecuted Church. In other ways we may understand it better almost 2000 years later, because we have seen Revelation’s prophecies fulfilled in the history of the Church.

Observations from the text:
1. John the Apostle wrote Revelation as a “chain letter” to seven churches in the Roman province of Asia, to be read, copied and passed on. Here’s the first of many uses of the number seven in Revelation. Seven in Biblical numerology represents perfection or completeness. Though it was written to these seven churches, it speaks to the entire Church, everywhere and in every age.

2. “Grace and Peace.” John wrote, “Charis,” and “Shalom.” Charis is Greek for “grace.” It’s where the English word “Charismatic” comes from. Shalom is Hebrew for “peace.” Christians today forget how Jewish in character the early church was in the first century, especially in Asia, where it grew up around converted messianic synagogues, and gradually reached out to and began to admit Gentiles. The Greek-Jewish diversity of the early church meant that Jewish and Gentile Christians alike needed to overcome a lot of old prejudices and cultural differences to become a united body in Christ. Just as Jewish Christians greeted one another saying, “Shalom,” Greek Christians said “Charis.”

3. “Him who is and who was and who is to come” means God the Father, because of the throne context and because John is now referring to the trinity, which always names the Father first. (Although “who is and was and is to come” can also be said of Jesus – Hebrews 13:8)

4. “The Seven Spirits” means the Holy Spirit, manifested in various ways in various places, but consisting of one perfect whole. Elsewhere in Revelation the seven Spirits are portrayed as seven lamps (Revelation 4:5) and the seven eyes of the Lamb (Revelation 5:6). 1 Corinthians 12:4-11. explains spiritual gifts- the variety of ways the Spirit works through Christians.

5. “And from Jesus Christ.” Here John completes the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit to emphasize that this book is God’s Word, with contributions from all three. They all send their greetings in language everyone can understand and identify with. In Revelation, the whole Godhead is talking to the whole Church in every age.

6. “Faithful witness.” Jesus is the perfect representative to mankind of God’s mind, will and character (see Colossians 1:15-17 quoted below).

7. “firstborn from the dead” Jesus was not chronologically the first to be resurrected, but He is “first” because all others resurrected before or after Him gained victory over death only by virtue of and contingent upon His victory over death. They were raised by Christ, whereas Christ raised Himself- uniquely having life in and of Himself, and being the Source of all life (John 1:1-3; 5:24-26, 1 Corinthians 15:12-23, Romans 14:9). Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:23 that Christ is the “firstfruits.” This is something that thrilled Jewish Christians, because they knew that the day Christ was resurrected coincided with the Jewish ceremony of “firstfruits.” (compare Leviticus 23:10,11 to Mark 16:1-6) At the same moment that in the temple the priest waved the first sheaf of grain before God, Jesus, the firstborn of the resurrection was walking out of the tomb! All the Jewish ceremonies were prophetically symbolic of Christ. Christians who ignore the Old Testament miss a lot of information that could help them better understand the New Testament in general, and we will see, Revelation in particular. Without a thorough understanding of the Old Testament, Revelation is largely incomprehensible.

8. “ruler over the kings of the earth” Planet Earth is engaged in a great controversy over who’s in charge- Christ or Satan. In Genesis 1:26, God originally made Adam (and by extension mankind) ruler over all life on earth. Satan claimed that by making Adam and Eve sin in the Garden of Eden, he had in effect made them turn sovereignty of the earth over to him (Matthew 4:8,9). By living a human life without sin- obedient even to death on the cross for our sins, Christ reversed what Adam had done, defeating Satan’s claim to dominion over the earth, and restoring life to us. This is why Christ is symbolically referred to as the “second Adam.” (1 Corinthians 15:22,45; Romans 5:15-19, Colossians 2:15, Revelation 11:15)

One day all people will recognize Christ as the King of kings (Philippians 2:10,11, Revelation 5:13;19:16). But, whether or not He is presently recognized as ruler over the kings of the earth, God through Christ always has from the beginning, overruled the affairs of earth for the completion of His eternal purpose (Daniel 2:21,22, Ephesians 1:10). All leaders on earth, whether they acknowledge or obey God or not, are putty in His hand, bringing about all “what must soon take place,” mentioned in Revelation 1:1.

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.