seal cull to go ahead in canada

Originally Posted by Pheasy

You would have thought, with todays technology, that 'they' would have come up with a more humane way of doing this!

Oh well, as long as 'they' sleep well at night, and are not too troubled by their actions, or haunted by dreams of someone 'culling' their kids in that manner, then all's good.

Not company I would choose to keep !!!!

I understand that quick high volt electrocution is the prefered method for killing stock animals. When we slughtered we slugged them in the head with a pointed mall. I have seen both nethods and performed both methods, the pointed mall is the quickest least suffering way possible. The electrocution method is said to render them unable to determine pain.

Pain is an automonic response though, it does not take higher reasoning to 'feel pain'. I would not consider feeling pain as a indication for having a soul.

Originally Posted by RedGlitter

No, we call them veterinarians or vets.

I think the very fact that we, a bunch of knowingless humans, are here rationalizing the incredible pain we cause to another species, by claiming they have no soul so it's not murder/it's okay, it's up to us to repopulate the fishes, and being hakapiked in the head is better than being shot, just goes to show what kind of collective creature we are as a species. I won't get in the soul argument because I can't offer the "proof" that is requested but I really am stunned by that. I think Pheasant is correct in that perhaps we should just start considering whether or not animals feel pain. And without giving me a bunch of bible hoo-ha which means nothing to me, I'd like to hear some ideas as to why we seem to think we are the only important, valuable species on this planet and where we get off killing as we do.

Yikes, I shall endeavor not to include any biblical 'hoo-ah'

First off im not trying to launch this into a biblical discussion Im am just trying to understand how folks feel about this subject. Im not saying becasue it has a soul it is less inferier and or less valulable.But because it is not a human it is not murder, in my opinion. (now being cruel to an animal purposely is an entirely different matter)

To me clearly there is a diffeence between animals and man, man is clearly the higher order creature with reasoning skills that are far advanced than an animal. I am for protecting as much as our animal kingdom as possible, and often I do not enjoy the amount of animal producst that are out there and do not buy them. For instancer I dont see the purpose in wearing an animal skin coat, but leather is fine since we slaughter the animal for food, we should use each part that can be used. I'm not one to wear a bear skin coat, and as far as I can recall, I'm not a trophy hunter, unless you consider making knife handles of antler material.

As a boy I enjoyed racoon hunting, deer hunting and turkey shoots, and bird shoots, more for the skill of the hunt than the actual killing itself. After being in the army for so many years and hunting man, I dont consider hunting to be a pleasurable things anymore. (personal choice).

To me animals are there for our use if needed, and our control when or if they get out of hand.

Now back to the soul thingy...

[Pheasy]

Originally Posted by Jester

I understand that quick high volt electrocution is the prefered method for killing stock animals. When we slughtered we slugged them in the head with a pointed mall. I have seen both nethods and performed both methods, the pointed mall is the quickest least suffering way possible. The electrocution method is said to render them unable to determine pain.

Pain is an automonic response though, it does not take higher reasoning to 'feel pain'. I would not consider feeling pain as a indication for having a soul.

I really do not want to enter into this religion/soul thing! I do not care about religion - what I do care about is if a person is a 'decent person'. I don't care what/who you worship and I will accept you based on your values to those living around you. The people who do this are disgusting!!

Originally Posted by Pheasy

I really do not want to enter into this religion/soul thing! I do not care about religion - what I do care about is if a person is a 'decent person'. I don't care what/who you worship and I will accept you based on your values to those living around you. The people who do this are disgusting!!

Sorry pheas, Ill bow out of this discussion... I can see I'm just too different on this subject to be able to not offend others.

[spot]

Originally Posted by RedGlitter

I think the very fact that we, a bunch of knowingless humans, are here rationalizing the incredible pain we cause to another species, by claiming they have no soul so it's not murder/it's okay,

Since it was me you quoted, perhaps you'd like to show me where I said that? Or anything like that?

I've said we don't, in clubbing them, cause incredible pain, I've said it's the nearest option that exists to painless.

I don't regard anything to do with "soul" as relevant, I don't understand what people mean by the word, I don't know how they distinguish what they mean from "spirit" and I've yet to find anyone prepared to discuss the meaning at all. Though I do sometimes ask.

I do, however, restrict the word "murder" to the deliberate killing of humans. That's just a historical accident of language.

[Clodhopper]

It does appear that every time human beings turn up in a new place there are mass extinctions. There's little direct proof that humans were responsible, but considerable circumstantial evidence:

It happened in the Americas, Australia and New Zealand. When you consider that the European invasion of the Americas wiped out the Passenger Pigeon and nearly the Bison, and I gathered from a documentary today the Maori definitely wiped out the Moa in what Europeans would call Mediaeval times (they then went on to set up nature reserves, so it appears humanity CAN learn and we don't HAVE to die in misery and cannibalism like the Easter Islanders) it seems we have to accept that as a species our hands are soaked in blood.

To some extent fair enough - we had to kill to survive. But the effects of climate change (almost certainly human caused) seem likely to dwarf anything we've seen in human history in terms of mass extinctions. Estimates I've seen vary from 20% to 50% of all plant and animal species worldwide over the next 100 to 200 years. (Data from IPCC, The Pew Centre (American) and the EU)

I notice that no-one is saying what a 1.7 to 2.3 degree centigrade average temperature rise would do to Africa's ability to support life - and Africa is consistently mentioned as one of the places which will get ABOVE average temperature rises.

Loosely, sea levels are expectected to rise between about 10 and 70 cm by 2100. This change will not be the same everywhere, but Bangladesh is already largely on stilts and I don't see how they can survive as a nation. What 150,000,000 starving Bangladeshis will do to the region is anyone's guess, but it won't be nice, and it won't increase the political stability of the region.

As well as all this we must assume that the great oceanic currents such as the Gulf and Humboldt will be affected - El Nino events are already known to have increased over the last two decades and the increased sightings of whales in the North Sea and Thames are indications that the deep ocean currents I gather they use to navigate are already disturbed. I don't know what this means for fish stocks, but I suspect culls are going to be the least of your seals concerns over the next few decades.

[Pheasy]

Originally Posted by Jester

Sorry pheas, Ill bow out of this discussion... I can see I'm just too different on this subject to be able to not offend others.

at you Jester.

I just don't understand how people can claim to be caring/good people and say that this is okay ... it just blows my mind.

Originally Posted by spot

Since it was me you quoted, perhaps you'd like to show me where I said that? Or anything like that?

I've said we don't, in clubbing them, cause incredible pain, I've said it's the nearest option that exists to painless.

I don't regard anything to do with "soul" as relevant, I don't understand what people mean by the word, I don't know how they distinguish what they mean from "spirit" and I've yet to find anyone prepared to discuss the meaning at all. Though I do sometimes ask.
I do, however, restrict the word "murder" to the deliberate killing of humans. That's just a historical accident of language.

I will start a thread so we can discuss it. (I'll be down where I belong before the tar and non-animal replacement for feathers come out)

[RedGlitter]

Originally Posted by spot

Since it was me you quoted, perhaps you'd like to show me where I said that? Or anything like that?

I've said we don't, in clubbing them, cause incredible pain, I've said it's the nearest option that exists to painless.

I don't regard anything to do with "soul" as relevant, I don't understand what people mean by the word, I don't know how they distinguish what they mean from "spirit" and I've yet to find anyone prepared to discuss the meaning at all. Though I do sometimes ask.

I do, however, restrict the word "murder" to the deliberate killing of humans. That's just a historical accident of language.

No, because I wasn't quoting you.

Originally Posted by Pheasy

at you Jester.

I just don't understand how people can claim to be caring/good people and say that this is okay ... it just blows my mind.

I was trying to get at this actually, I'm saying that if the animal is needed for the survival of man then its necessary to kill the animal in the least painful way possible. Or the way in which it suffers the least, which without going into gorey detail is simple to bleed the animal.

Thats my position, its not pretty, but the animal does not suffer in terms of pain.