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Thread: Bad things happen in wars

  1. #11
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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    If we're going to trade other people's opinions, I was quite impressed by this one...

    The new ugly American
    by Tess Ellis, Unknown News

    May 28, 2004

    When those in the future look back at this time in history, they can't help but be appalled at the ignorance of those who orchestrated the debacle in Iraq. Not to mention horrified by the total disregard shown for the lives of the people there and their culture.

    Following a week of nonstop pictures showing our soldiers cruelly mistreating prisoners, most of whom were randomly detained and denied all legal rights, that ignorant disregard for the lives of Iraqi citizens hit it's zenith with the military strike on the members of a wedding party.

    The attack was justified by Major-General James Mattis, Commander of the 1st Marine Division, who said "How many people go to the middle of the desert 10 miles [16 kilometers] from the Syrian border to hold a wedding 80 miles from the nearest civilization?"

    He went on to say, "These were more than two dozen military-age males. Let's not be naïve."

    Naïve? Major-General Mattis, are you married?

    Did you have a big wedding? All your family, friends, and important "business connections"? A couple hundred people would only be a medium-sized affair. Maybe you kept expenses down, and only invited your immediate family and closest friends. A small group of 50 or so.

    Did you marry young? Maybe in that small group of friends and family that attended your wedding, were there a couple dozen men of "military-age"? Maybe even actually IN the military since that is your chosen career?

    Do you have children, Mattis? Have you walked your daughter down the aisle in front of all the people you hold dear? How would you feel if they were seen as a threat, showered with bombs as they slept afterwards, mowed down as they fled the carnage?

    And where are you from, Mattis? A large city? Or somewhere out in the country? If you live in a rural area, are you going to go to some big unfamiliar city and rent a hall at the Hilton? Or are you going to hold the affair in a local church, or in someone's yard?

    How pompous can you be, Major-General Mattis, to ask who holds a wedding 80 miles from nowhere, 10 miles from the Syrian border? Could it be people who've lived there for generations, and perhaps want to go on living their lives as they have for generations BEFORE we invaded their country and "liberated" them? Could it be tribal people who can't leave their herds to travel the 80 miles over dangerous American occupied territory to what you consider "civilization" far away from their family and friends, to celebrate a cherished moment in their lives?

    How can the man who is the head of this family feel? He arranged a marriage between his son and a girl from another tribe, along with the union of one of his nieces and a young man from that tribe at the same time. Relatives came from miles away, including those who lived across the border in Syria. They hired the most popular wedding singer in Iraq, and his band to entertain the guests. The wedding singer and his cousin who played the organ were killed in the attack. As were 27 members of this man's family, and almost 20 more of their guests.

    How would you feel, Major-General Mattis, if it were YOUR son's wedding? How would you feel if your wife was killed, along with some of your children and grandchildren? Because you lived "80 miles from nowhere" and had "2 dozen men of military-age" in attendance?

    What qualifies you to lead the 1st Marine division in Iraq when you are so ignorant about the Iraqi people?

    Yes, there are questions about the village involved being tied to smugglers and Mujahadeen. But you know what, Major-General Mattis? If the United States had been invaded and was occupied, I would do everything I could to fight the invaders.

    AND SO WOULD YOU.

    What gives Brigadier-General Mark Kimmit the right to say "Bad people have parties too" as a way of justifying killing 40 people, including 15 children under 14, attacking them while they slept?

    What moral authority do we have to judge these people as "bad"?

    You think its right to kill them because they have tried to carry on their lives in a somewhat normal fashion, and that they are also PERHAPS trying to defend their country and way of life?

    Remember that song?

    "And I’m proud to be an American where at least I know I’m free.
    And I won’t forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
    And I’d gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today...."

    I'll defend this country with you anytime we're attacked by another country, Major-General Mattis.

    But I won't defend you killing people in a country we attacked who are trying to defend theirs.

    Just like Lee Greenwood, I'm proud to be an American.

    That means I value American rights, AND the rights of those in other countries.

    Don't kill people out of ignorance and claim to do it in my name.

  2. #12
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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by Jives
    I win.
    This isn't a game, Jives, and there are no winners. There are dead bodies of innocent men, women and children, and there's a man in charge who should express shame for his orders.

    You seem to have no empathy at all for what was suffered. This is a bit of background - again, quoted, and I prefer not to quote much, but you simply have no idea of the agony involved behind your posturing.

    'US soldiers started to shoot us, one by one'

    Survivors describe wedding massacre as generals refuse to apologise

    Rory McCarthy in Ramadi
    Friday May 21, 2004
    The Guardian

    The wedding feast was finished and the women had just led the young bride and groom away to their marriage tent for the night when Haleema Shihab heard the first sounds of the fighter jets screeching through the sky above.

    It was 10.30pm in the remote village of Mukaradeeb by the Syrian border and the guests hurried back to their homes as the party ended. As sister-in-law of the groom, Mrs Shihab, 30, was to sleep with her husband and children in the house of the wedding party, the Rakat family villa. She was one of the few in the house who survived the night.

    "The bombing started at 3am," she said yesterday from her bed in the emergency ward at Ramadi general hospital, 60 miles west of Baghdad. "We went out of the house and the American soldiers started to shoot us. They were shooting low on the ground and targeting us one by one," she said. She ran with her youngest child in her arms and her two young boys, Ali and Hamza, close behind. As she crossed the fields a shell exploded close to her, fracturing her legs and knocking her to the ground.

    She lay there and a second round hit her on the right arm. By then her two boys lay dead. "I left them because they were dead," she said. One, she saw, had been decapitated by a shell.

    "I fell into the mud and an American soldier came and kicked me. I pretended to be dead so he wouldn't kill me. My youngest child was alive next to me."

    Mrs Shibab's description, backed by other witnesses, of an attack on a sleeping village is at odds with the American claim that they came under fire while targeting a suspected foreign fighter safe house.

    She described how in the hours before dawn she watched as American troops destroyed the Rakat villa and the house next door, reducing the buildings to rubble.

    Another relative carried Mrs Shihab and her surviving child to hospital. There she was told her husband Mohammed, the eldest of the Rakat sons, had also died.

    As Mrs Shihab spoke she gestured with hands still daubed red-brown with the henna the women had used to decorate themselves for the wedding. Alongside her in the ward yesterday were three badly injured girls from the Rakat family: Khalood Mohammed, aged just a year and struggling for breath, Moaza Rakat, 12, and Iqbal Rakat, 15, whose right foot doctors had already amputated.

    By the time the sun rose on Wednesday over the Rakat family house, the raid had claimed 42 lives, according to Hamdi Noor al-Alusi, manager of the al-Qaim general hospital, the nearest to the village.

    Among the dead were 27 members of the extended Rakat family, their wedding guests and even the band of musicians hired to play at the ceremony, among them Hussein al-Ali from Ramadi, one of the most popular singers in western Iraq.

    Dr Alusi said 11 of the dead were women and 14 were children. "I want to know why the Americans targeted this small village," he said by telephone. "These people are my patients. I know each one of them. What has caused this disaster?"

  3. #13
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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by spot
    You do realize that this is the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of this same military from Vietnam, don't you?
    get your facts straight. you have been yammering on endlessly about minute details of the pat tillman case, to apparently build a case for the evilness of all that is the united states military.

    so get your facts straight on the above. it is not the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of the US military from Vietnam.

    Because your politics intrudes to such an extent on the life and well-being of the 96% of the population of the planet who aren't American.
    bollocks. there's about six billion people on earth. more than a billion are chinese. nearly a billion are Indians. so there's 33.3% of the world's population that is barely touched by our politics (well, to be fair, india gains a tremendous amount of domestic revenue from american companies outsourcing labor to their country, and trade with china is not insignificant either - but of course, those are cases of dealings with america that are *positive*, and since america has no positive influence in the world by your narrow vision, those things quite simply don't exist).

    There are so many parallels between US foreign policy and cancer that I scarcely know where to begin explaining them to you.
    yes. cancer is well known for providing hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to people who suffered through a catastrophic tsunami. and of course, cancer is also well known for sending aircraft carriers to the region in support of immediate aid to those afflicted, in order to get food, water, and supplies to them in the critical days immediately after the disaster, unlike *any other nation on earth*. and cancer of course came to the aid of europe in world war II, aid without which you likely would never have survived that flower of blooming health hitler. and cancer of course helped rebuild europe. and cancer of course brought the soviet union to its knees, brought down the berlin wall allowing millions who were in chains to be freed.

    now, all that jingoism aside, does US foreign policy have a dark side? a bad side? of course. there's scarcely a country on earth that doesn't have foreign policies that are 'wrong'. it's in the nature of the beast. each country looks out for its own self-interests, the interests of its people, and not uncommonly, those interests conflict with the interests of people in other countries. as a reference, you might be interested in reviewing your own country's history in that regard. you know, british imperialism, enslaving entire nations so you can have your afternoon tea.

    I've seen children play King of the Castle before, and it's a perfect analogy for your position. You get to stay at the top of the castle by pushing down the competition, which is just what I see happening. I prefer more co-operative games.
    if you were interested in cooperative games, you wouldn't be taking every opportunity possible to slam the United States in any manner you can. Rather you'd be spending equal time railing against your own country's policies, and looking to discuss the nature of internation relations.

    your actions are those of the classic Troll.

  4. #14
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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by Jives
    The "Wedding party" guests were terrorists and terrorist collaborators. They were funneling fighters and weapons across the border. They got what they deserved. Their pathetic attempt to turn it into a media event will only fool those already predisposed to hate America.
    I thought you prefered a source undivorced from the situation. Rory McCarthy actually met and talked with the survivors. Read the words and weep.

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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    so get your facts straight on the above. it is not the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of the US military from Vietnam.
    What???

    May 5, 2005: Thirty years ago, Americans were transfixed by the chaotic images flickering across their TV screens. Hordes of frantic South Vietnamese men, women and children desperately clinging to the U.S. Embassy fence in Saigon, pleading for escape. Chinook helicopters teetering precariously on the embassy roof, evacuating the last Americans even as North Vietnamese Communist Army tanks rolled into the outskirts of the city. Huey gunships, the very symbol of American combat power in Vietnam, commandeered by fleeing South Vietnamese Army pilots, either ditched into the sea or pushed overboard from the decks of crowded American aircraft carriers.


    They weren't military?

    You had guys who stayed longer??

    I think that's pretty anniversarial.

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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by spot
    What???

    May 5, 2005: Thirty years ago, Americans were transfixed by the chaotic images flickering across their TV screens. Hordes of frantic South Vietnamese men, women and children desperately clinging to the U.S. Embassy fence in Saigon, pleading for escape. Chinook helicopters teetering precariously on the embassy roof, evacuating the last Americans even as North Vietnamese Communist Army tanks rolled into the outskirts of the city. Huey gunships, the very symbol of American combat power in Vietnam, commandeered by fleeing South Vietnamese Army pilots, either ditched into the sea or pushed overboard from the decks of crowded American aircraft carriers.

    They weren't military?
    i usually don't resort to this sort of thing, but can you read? i mean, really. you've just quoted the above, and yet your blinders seem to prevent you from actually taking note of what was written.

    You had guys who stayed longer??
    back to history 101. once you've looked up the facts properly, come back and report to us. that woudl be great.
    I think that's pretty anniversarial.
    only to trolls who see everything as "evil america".

    okay, i'll give you a tiny hint, since you are so blind you will not see: search on "1973". okay? cheerio.

  7. #17
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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    back to history 101. once you've looked up the facts properly, come back and report to us. that woudl be great... okay, i'll give you a tiny hint, since you are so blind you will not see: search on "1973". okay? cheerio.
    I'm not playing that game, anastrophe - if you know something relevant, you come out with it. There was a peace treaty signed in 1973, the US military spent the following two years in-country continuing to advise the US-backed army of South Vietnam, and the US military finally pulled out of Vietnam at the end of April 1975.

    I'd call that the 30th anniversary of the departure of the US military from Vietnam, even if you don't.

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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by spot
    I'm not playing that game, anastrophe - if you know something relevant, you come out with it. There was a peace treaty signed in 1973, the US military spent the following two years in-country continuing to advise the US-backed army of South Vietnam, and the US military finally pulled out of Vietnam at the end of April 1975.

    I'd call that the 30th anniversary of the departure of the US military from Vietnam, even if you don't.
    pull your head from your arse. The US military exited vietnam in 1973. this is not even a stretch. the US embassy had a small contingent of marines onsite, standard operating procedure around the world.

    saigon was taken by the viet cong in 1975. two years after the US military pulled out. you want to spin it to your myopic view of the world, fine. have fun. warp history for your needs. america is the soul of evil, the UK is a shining light of righteousness.

    i'm about ready to put you on my 'ignore' list, as you are a Troll, pure and simple. i'd recommend others who are interested in actual *discussion* do the same. spot is here to 'point out' the evil of america, brave and righteous soul that he is. there is no counter argument of course, and i've yet to read a solitary positive word about america from this Troll. so "ignore" is the best course of action.

  9. #19
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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    get your facts straight. you have been yammering on endlessly about minute details of the pat tillman case, to apparently build a case for the evilness of all that is the united states military.

    so get your facts straight on the above. it is not the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of the US military from Vietnam.

    bollocks. there's about six billion people on earth. more than a billion are chinese. nearly a billion are Indians. so there's 33.3% of the world's population that is barely touched by our politics (well, to be fair, india gains a tremendous amount of domestic revenue from american companies outsourcing labor to their country, and trade with china is not insignificant either - but of course, those are cases of dealings with america that are *positive*, and since america has no positive influence in the world by your narrow vision, those things quite simply don't exist).

    yes. cancer is well known for providing hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to people who suffered through a catastrophic tsunami. and of course, cancer is also well known for sending aircraft carriers to the region in support of immediate aid to those afflicted, in order to get food, water, and supplies to them in the critical days immediately after the disaster, unlike *any other nation on earth*. and cancer of course came to the aid of europe in world war II, aid without which you likely would never have survived that flower of blooming health hitler. and cancer of course helped rebuild europe. and cancer of course brought the soviet union to its knees, brought down the berlin wall allowing millions who were in chains to be freed.

    now, all that jingoism aside, does US foreign policy have a dark side? a bad side? of course. there's scarcely a country on earth that doesn't have foreign policies that are 'wrong'. it's in the nature of the beast. each country looks out for its own self-interests, the interests of its people, and not uncommonly, those interests conflict with the interests of people in other countries. as a reference, you might be interested in reviewing your own country's history in that regard. you know, british imperialism, enslaving entire nations so you can have your afternoon tea.

    if you were interested in cooperative games, you wouldn't be taking every opportunity possible to slam the United States in any manner you can. Rather you'd be spending equal time railing against your own country's policies, and looking to discuss the nature of internation relations.

    your actions are those of the classic Troll.
    Bollocks. I did not think that Americans understood the meaning of this language Paul

  10. #20
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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

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    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    yes. cancer is well known for providing hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to people who suffered through a catastrophic tsunami. and of course, cancer is also well known for sending aircraft carriers to the region in support of immediate aid to those afflicted, in order to get food, water, and supplies to them in the critical days immediately after the disaster, unlike *any other nation on earth*. and cancer of course came to the aid of europe in world war II, aid without which you likely would never have survived that flower of blooming health hitler. and cancer of course helped rebuild europe. and cancer of course brought the soviet union to its knees, brought down the berlin wall allowing millions who were in chains to be freed.

    now, all that jingoism aside, does US foreign policy have a dark side? a bad side? of course. there's scarcely a country on earth that doesn't have foreign policies that are 'wrong'. it's in the nature of the beast. each country looks out for its own self-interests, the interests of its people, and not uncommonly, those interests conflict with the interests of people in other countries. as a reference, you might be interested in reviewing your own country's history in that regard. you know, british imperialism, enslaving entire nations so you can have your afternoon tea.

    if you were interested in cooperative games, you wouldn't be taking every opportunity possible to slam the United States in any manner you can. Rather you'd be spending equal time railing against your own country's policies, and looking to discuss the nature of internation relations.

    your actions are those of the classic Troll.
    case in point: the Troll completely ignored this large part of my post. wouldn't go near it. no rebuttal, no comment, nothing. would have had to acknowledge that the US is not the sole evil force on earth. doesn't fit with already hard-coded ideology that US is Pure Evil.

    challenge: write ONE SINGLE SENTENCE spot, that overtly, and honestly, acknowledges that the US has done something, anything, at any time, that is not evil.

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