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Thread: Bad things happen in wars

  1. #21
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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    challenge: write ONE SINGLE SENTENCE spot, that overtly, and honestly, acknowledges that the US has done something, anything, at any time, that is not evil.
    You'll give me a while, perhaps? My kettle's boiling, and I'll lose the hot water already in the bath if I don't go and use it now.

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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by spot
    You'll give me a while, perhaps? My kettle's boiling, and I'll lose the hot water already in the bath if I don't go and use it now.
    yeah, right. if your view weren't 100% myopic, you could have written, in less than ten seconds, "america did a great thing in selflessly helping the tsunami victims" - simply culling from my post a throwaway a couple of 'kind words'.

    fact: what will boil is not your water, but your loathing for all things having to do with the United States, if you are forced to lie and say something positive about us. oh, i figure you'll probably drop that one sentence in here, just for show. then you'll resume attempting to turn every topic into a platform for your "I Hate America" screeds.

    in the words of Tony Blair, your efforts here will amount to a damp squib, as long as i'm around.

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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    I think if somebody hates war they should spend less time insulting soldiers and governments and more time thinking about alternate solutions. What have you done to end war, Spot? Other than talk about how much it sucks.

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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    pull your head from your arse. The US military exited vietnam in 1973. this is not even a stretch. the US embassy had a small contingent of marines onsite, standard operating procedure around the world.
    OK, let's close this one down if we can. I've been reading what I hope is a neutral site, http://www.vietnamwar.com/Timeline69-75.htm

    April 29, 1975 - NVA shell Tan Son Nhut air base in Saigon, killing two U.S. Marines at the compound gate. Conditions then deteriorate as South Vietnamese civilians loot the air base. President Ford now orders Operation Frequent Wind, the helicopter evacuation of 7000 Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon, which begins with the radio broadcast of the song "White Christmas" as a pre-arraigned code signal.

    Now, either we say the end of bombing Cambodia in August 1973 is the end of the Vietnam war, or we say that this is, it's semantics at this point. For me, that's a lot of advisers and CIA operatives in the 7000 helicoptered out in April 75. It's certainly not the 10 embassy marines you were talking about. But, as you will. 73, end of war, not a problem, I apologise for not recognizing that a helicopter evacuation of 7000 people doesn't signify continued American involvement in the conflict up to that point.

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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by spot
    OK, let's close this one down if we can. I've been reading what I hope is a neutral site, http://www.vietnamwar.com/Timeline69-75.htm

    April 29, 1975 - NVA shell Tan Son Nhut air base in Saigon, killing two U.S. Marines at the compound gate. Conditions then deteriorate as South Vietnamese civilians loot the air base. President Ford now orders Operation Frequent Wind, the helicopter evacuation of 7000 Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon, which begins with the radio broadcast of the song "White Christmas" as a pre-arraigned code signal.

    Now, either we say the end of bombing Cambodia in August 1973 is the end of the Vietnam war, or we say that this is, it's semantics at this point. For me, that's a lot of advisers and CIA operatives in the 7000 helicoptered out in April 75. It's certainly not the 10 embassy marines you were talking about.
    what part of "7000 americans and south vietnamese" don't you understand?

    those evacuated were not US military, they were american civilians and vietnamese refugees.

    But, as you will. 73, end of war, not a problem, I apologise for not recognizing that a helicopter evacuation of 7000 people doesn't signify continued American involvement in the conflict up to that point.
    i'd expect you to spin it no differently.

    the US military pulled out of vietnam in 1973. saigon fell thirty years ago to the communist viet cong, after the south vietnamese military was not able to hold them back after two years fighting them without US military support. that's the anniversary being recognized.

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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    what part of "7000 americans and south vietnamese" don't you understand?

    those evacuated were not US military, they were american civilians and vietnamese refugees.
    This is quite interesting, really. I think you might be mistaken but of course, it's not my field. Have a look at this though, which I've OCR'd from “Vietnam (13), Box 19, National Security Adviser. Presidential Country Files for East Asia and the Pacific, Gerald R. Ford Library":

    Vietnam Assessment Report by General Fred C. Weyand, April 4, 1975, extracted from page 2:

    "For reasons of prudence, the United States should plan now for a mass evacuation of some 6,000 U.S. citizens and tens of thousands of South Vietnamese and Third Country Nationals to whom we have incurred an obligation and owe protection. The lessons of Danang indicate that this evacuation Would require as a minimum a U.S. task force of a reinforced division supported by tactical air to suppress North Vietnamese artillery and anti-aircraft, as required. At the appropriate time, a public statement of this policy should be made and the North. Vietnamese clearly warned "of U.S. intention to use force to safely evacuate personnel". Authority should be obtained to authorize appropriate use of military sanctions against North Vietnam if there is interference with the evacuation."

    You'll notice that General Weyand refers to these 6,000 U.S. citizens as "personnel", not as civilians. I think they're a combination of military and Intelligence officers, myself. What have you that would suggest otherwise?

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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by spot
    OK, let's close this one down if we can. I've been reading what I hope is a neutral site, http://www.vietnamwar.com/Timeline69-75.htm

    April 29, 1975 - NVA shell Tan Son Nhut air base in Saigon, killing two U.S. Marines at the compound gate. Conditions then deteriorate as South Vietnamese civilians loot the air base. President Ford now orders Operation Frequent Wind, the helicopter evacuation of 7000 Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon, which begins with the radio broadcast of the song "White Christmas" as a pre-arraigned code signal.

    Now, either we say the end of bombing Cambodia in August 1973 is the end of the Vietnam war, or we say that this is, it's semantics at this point. For me, that's a lot of advisers and CIA operatives in the 7000 helicoptered out in April 75. It's certainly not the 10 embassy marines you were talking about. But, as you will. 73, end of war, not a problem, I apologise for not recognizing that a helicopter evacuation of 7000 people doesn't signify continued American involvement in the conflict up to that point.
    A few "spotted" facts about the end of the war:

    The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American military left Vietnam. The last American troops departed in their entirety 29 March 1973. How could we lose a war we had already stopped fighting? We fought to an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973. It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces, limitation of both sides' forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to peaceful reunification. [1996 Information Please Almanac]

    The 140,000 evacuees in April 1975 during the fall of Saigon consisted almost entirely of civilians and Vietnamese military, NOT American military running for their lives. [1996 Information Please Almanac]

    There were almost twice as many casualties in Southeast Asia (primarily Cambodia) the first two years after the fall of Saigon in 1975 then there were during the ten years the U.S. was involved in Vietnam. [1996 Information Please Almanac]

    In my opinion the worst thing we ever did was stop the bombings in Cambodia. It is not widely broadcast about how many died in the first 2 years we pulled out of Viet Nam but the killings of innocents was atrocious.

    We had the Viet Cong on the run and they were about to negotiate.
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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by spot
    "For reasons of prudence, the United States should plan now for a mass evacuation of some 6,000 U.S. citizens and tens of thousands of South Vietnamese and Third Country Nationals to whom we have incurred an obligation and owe protection. The lessons of Danang indicate that this evacuation Would require as a minimum a U.S. task force of a reinforced division supported by tactical air to suppress North Vietnamese artillery and anti-aircraft, as required. At the appropriate time, a public statement of this policy should be made and the North. Vietnamese clearly warned "of U.S. intention to use force to safely evacuate personnel". Authority should be obtained to authorize appropriate use of military sanctions against North Vietnam if there is interference with the evacuation."

    You'll notice that General Weyand refers to these 6,000 U.S. citizens as "personnel", not as civilians. I think they're a combination of military and Intelligence officers, myself. What have you that would suggest otherwise?
    strange, it looks to me like he referred to U.S. citizens as U.S. citizens. military commands don't refer to military personnel as "U.S. citizens", they refer to them as military personnel.

    i believe there is *no* definitive breakdown of who was evacuated. it was complete chaos, and the US forces who came back in to assist in the evacuation pretty much took anyone who wanted to leave, up until the viet cong overran the city. i think it's no more unreasonable to assume that the majority of those evacuated were civilians than is your assumption that they were military.

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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    strange, it looks to me like he referred to U.S. citizens as U.S. citizens. military commands don't refer to military personnel as "U.S. citizens", they refer to them as military personnel.
    I obviously quoted too much for you to assimilate. General Weyand refers to these 6,000 U.S. citizens as "personnel", not as civilians in the sentence 'Vietnamese clearly warned "of U.S. intention to use force to safely evacuate personnel".' - which is why I quoted the page. Because of his use of the word Personnel relating to the 6,000 U.S. citizens.

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    Re: Bad things happen in wars

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    Quote Originally Posted by spot
    I obviously quoted too much for you to assimilate. General Weyand refers to these 6,000 U.S. citizens as "personnel", not as civilians in the sentence 'Vietnamese clearly warned "of U.S. intention to use force to safely evacuate personnel".' - which is why I quoted the page. Because of his use of the word Personnel relating to the 6,000 U.S. citizens.
    speaking of weaseling. it's clear at this point you are not willing to concede that this is the anniversary of the fall of saigon, not the anniversary of the US military leaving viet nam. oh well.

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