Bad things happen in wars

[spot]

Rather than allow the Wedding Party debacle to be forgotten, may we discuss it for a few minutes?

'"These were more than two dozen military-age males. Let's not be naive," Major General James Mattis, commander of the US 1st Marine Division, said. But he had no explanation of where the dead women and children in the video came from. "I have not seen the pictures but bad things happen in wars," he said cryptically. "I don't have to apologise for the conduct of my men."

'General Mattis asked: "How many people go to the middle of the desert 10 miles from the Syrian border to hold a wedding 80 miles from the nearest civilisation?" Iraqis replied that the victims of the attack were holding the wedding in the village where they had lived all their lives.'

Let me quote these inspiring words from General Mattis' 1st Marine Division (REIN) Commanding General's Message to All Hands, March 2003: 'When I give you the word, together we will cross the Line of Departure, close with those forces that choose to fight, and destroy them. Our fight is not with the Iraqi people, nor is it with members of the Iraqi army who choose to surrender. While we will move swiftly and aggressively against those who resist, we will treat all others with decency, demonstrating chivalry and soldierly compassion for people who have endured a lifetime under Saddam's oppression.'

' [...] You are part of the world's most feared and trusted force. Engage your brain before you engage your weapon. Share your courage with each other as we enter the uncertain terrain north of the Line of Departure. Keep faith in your comrades on your left and right and Marine Air overhead. Fight with a happy heart and strong spirit. For the mission's sake, our country's sake, and the sake of the men who carried the Division's colors in past battles — who fought for life and never lost their nerve — carry out your mission and keep your honor clean.'

I think an apology for the conduct of the General's command, at least, would be quite in order. All that is missing is a man of conscience.

Engage your brain, General, before you engage your weapon.

Let's not be naive.

[john8pies]

Yep, it`s hard to believe, isn`t it? Mind you, it`s hard in a way to believe that after thousands of years in which millions of wars have cost zillions of life, some leaders would rather apparently engage in yet another war rather than try other ways of sorting things out.

[Philadelphia Eagle]

You may not realize it Spot but you are talking to some of us who have actually 'been there, done that etc'
Many of your own countrymen are also in that category.

I can tell you from personal experience that 'armchair experts' are not the most popular of people with those who actually go and do the real job.

[spot]

Of course I realize it, PE. You've told us, we've read it, we take it into consideration.

There seems to be a taboo, these days, along the lines of "the members of our Armed Forces are wonderful people, we admire them immensely for their potential sacrifice, let's applaud whenever they march by." Unpopular though it might be, I refuse to kow-tow to it. Taboos in general are lousy guides to morality. People who sign up to the armed forces are moral derelicts, in my opinion. They had a choice to be useful members of society, and they threw it away in exchange for a lot of money and a great deal of personal satisfaction playing with noisy killing machines.

And General Mattis, among his peers, is a moral derelict on a larger scale than most.

Have you a pipe in which you can smoke that?

[Philadelphia Eagle]

I, and I suspect many others, find your anti-American, socialist rantings obnoxious and rude.
You obviously have an obsession with our military.
In America we are very proud of our many achievements.
You do not see us attacking your country's politics so why your obsessive interest in ours?
It's easy to throw stones at the person at the top of the pile but that's where we are and that's where we'll stay.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Eagle

I, and I suspect many others, find your anti-American, socialist rantings obnoxious and rude.

That's supposed to deter me from expressing my opinion?

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Eagle

You obviously have an obsession with our military.

Well what a surprise - this is, after all, the military that forces its presence most objectionably on so many parts of the world which might otherwise support Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. You do realize that this is the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of this same military from Vietnam, don't you?

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Eagle

In America we are very proud of our many achievements.

Have you no concept of how utterly unChristian that vile boast is?

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Eagle

You do not see us attacking your country's politics so why your obsessive interest in ours?

Because your politics intrudes to such an extent on the life and well-being of the 96% of the population of the planet who aren't American. There are so many parallels between US foreign policy and cancer that I scarcely know where to begin explaining them to you.

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Eagle

It's easy to throw stones at the person at the top of the pile but that's where we are and that's where we'll stay.

I've seen children play King of the Castle before, and it's a perfect analogy for your position. You get to stay at the top of the castle by pushing down the competition, which is just what I see happening. I prefer more co-operative games.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Jives

Since they are risking their lives for you, that seems the courteous thing to do. Didn't your mother teach you that?

They are not risking their lives for me in the slightest, they are risking their lives for their political masters and for their generous pay packets. If any of them are acting under the misapprehension that they are risking their lives on my behalf, allow me to say, here and now, thank you for your misguided efforts but do, please, stop it.

Originally Posted by Jives

... bloodsucking leech ... cowardly snake ...

It is scarcely an hour, Jives, since I was described in this thread as rude. I refute that suggestion. I have been unfailingly polite to everyone here since I arrived.

Originally Posted by Jives

Without soldiers, you would currently be speaking German.

That is perhaps the most widely-used cockamamie view of reality that military apologists drag out, these days. How you can dare equate what was done in the fight against Fascism with the self-interest of current times is a matter for your own conscience, not mine.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Jives

The point remains, without the soldiers that you insult and degrade, vicious dictators can do what they will. Your army is all that stands between yourself and slavery to another government.

I have no problem with armies being employed for defense. When was the last time the US military was used for defense?

You field an offensive capability, you play away from home, you kill people in their own land and express surprise when anyone resists. What you chiefly lack, thanks to your sycophantic media, is a respectable objective view of your actions or motives.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Jives

Hmmm...aside from insulting the honor of every serviceman that ever lived, including my grandfather, father, and myself, and impugning the integrity of decent servicemen the world over, and dragging the values and morals of an entire generation through the mud, I'd say yes...you have been polite.

The man who has insulted the honor of every serviceman that ever lived, including your grandfather, father, and yourself, and impugned the integrity of decent servicemen the world over, and dragged the values and morals of an entire generation through the mud, is, of course, the subject of this thread, General Mattis - it's why I mentioned him in the first place.

I'm referring, of course, to these words of his:

"Actually, it’s a lot of fun to fight. You know, it’s a hell of a hoot… It’s fun to shoot some people. I’ll be right upfront with you, I like brawling… You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn’t wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain’t got no manhood left anyway. So it’s a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."

He gets paid a lot, he enjoys playing with noisy lethal weaponry, and he has no moral sense. Which is where I began.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Jives

In other words, disagree with the war, but honor the soldier!!!

I think my answer to this crossed in the post. Look back one message.

Tennyson was notorious for writing doggerel, after he became Poet Laureate. Have a look at The Revenge, if you don't believe me.