liberal americans?

[gmc]

http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=liberal

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=liberal


1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
4. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
2.
1. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
2. Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.
3. Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: a liberal translation.
4. Of, relating to, or based on the traditional arts and sciences of a college or university curriculum: a liberal education.
5.
1. Archaic. Permissible or appropriate for a person of free birth; befitting a lady or gentleman.
2. Obsolete. Morally unrestrained; licentious.

This bugs the life out of me I just don't get it. I even did a web search to find an american dictionary, liberal ostensibly means the same in the US as it does in the UK i.e. a liberal is someone who believes in indivdual freedom, the kind of principles that formed the US constitution and underpin most of the westerm demopcracies. America is a liberal democracy, you are supposedly fighting a war to defend liberal values.

Seriously guys, why is the term liberal used as an insult. What has it come to mean? If someone says to me you are a liberal my inclination is to point out that as someone who values individual liberty I am by definition a holder of liberal views. Personally I can't understand anyone who does not value freedom of the individual. Like most epople I am right wing in some things left in others.

I have seen the term liberal socialist used in one forum-which makes no sense to me as the two are mutually exclusive i.e. you cannot be a socialist and a liberal at the same time as the very nature of socialism militates against freedom of the individual-social reform is another matter.

It's almost like the newspeak of 1984-if you change the meanings of words then you can alter the nature of dissent, good becomes bad and bad good etc etc.

So if you are not liberal and don't value individual freedom as a principle what does liberal mean in a us context? If not a liberal democracy then what is america?

“England and America are two countries separated by the same language”
—George Bernard Shaw

“England and America are two countries separated by the Atlantic Ocean”
—Eddie Izzard

“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master–that's all.”
—Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

[john8pies]

Ah, sometimes the dictionary confuses more than it elucidates! Here in the UK it`s even worse, for example, the Liberal Party used to be the `centrist` party between right-wing Tories and left-wing Labour. Now the use of the word `liberal` is almost derided as being `almost too left-wing to be believable` and they are to the left of the Labour Party in many policy matters, eg, only Liberal want to let off first-time offenders and decriminalise cannabis in total. Hence presumably the derogatory phrase, `nambypamby left-wing bleeding heart liberals` !!!!!

[Accountable]

1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
4. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.



American politics uses labels as weapons. The definition #1 cannot apply to American Liberals (capital L) because bigotry against anything heralded by Conservatives is required. The same goes the other way. If you ever see any hint of tolerance from either side, it is purely coincidence.

I think it is natural evolution. The two sides are becoming more and more polarized until pretty soon they will both implode (or explode, or just plode). Whoever is left will pick up the useful pieces and try to clean up the mess. History will make up a new name for it and file it away with the British Empire and Rome.

[David813]

Originally Posted by john8pies

Ah, sometimes the dictionary confuses more than it elucidates! Here in the UK it`s even worse, for example, the Liberal Party used to be the `centrist` party between right-wing Tories and left-wing Labour. Now the use of the word `liberal` is almost derided as being `almost too left-wing to be believable` and they are to the left of the Labour Party in many policy matters, eg, only Liberal want to let off first-time offenders and decriminalise cannabis in total. Hence presumably the derogatory phrase, `nambypamby left-wing bleeding heart liberals` !!!!!

Liberalism in the US died with Lyndon Johnson in the late 60's. The term is widely used now to describe anyone that isn't a Christian conservative.

[anastrophe]

Originally Posted by gmc

This bugs the life out of me I just don't get it. I even did a web search to find an american dictionary, liberal ostensibly means the same in the US as it does in the UK i.e. a liberal is someone who believes in indivdual freedom, the kind of principles that formed the US constitution and underpin most of the westerm demopcracies. America is a liberal democracy, you are supposedly fighting a war to defend liberal values.

america is not a liberal democracy, if we're going to be accurate about things. the united states is a federal republic. that has a specific meaning, that describes the structure of our government. our political system has aspects and underpinnings of democracy, but thankfully, it is NOT a true democracy. true democracy revels in the tyranny of the majority, and *does not work* as a political system.

Seriously guys, why is the term liberal used as an insult. What has it come to mean?

someone who believes social change is best performed by the government, through taxation. take the earnings of those who don't 'deserve' what they earned, and redistribute it to those who ostensibly do. create unelected bodies to control local government - planning commissions that lock down the ability to build new homes to prevent 'overcrowding' - which works great if you want to drive the value of your property through the roof.

I have seen the term liberal socialist used in one forum-which makes no sense to me as the two are mutually exclusive i.e. you cannot be a socialist and a liberal at the same time as the very nature of socialism militates against freedom of the individual-social reform is another matter.

liberalism has morphed into socialism. it came about as a melding of the far leftist creeds of "social justice" (is there any other kind of justice, pray?) and redistribution of wealth. in this sense, 'liberal' means 'being liberal with The People's money'. so it's rather the particular senses noted --

1. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
2. Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.

rather than liberal based upon liberty, but liberal based upon giving generously (from the public coffers).

It's almost like the newspeak of 1984-if you change the meanings of words then you can alter the nature of dissent, good becomes bad and bad good etc etc.

however, i think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. it's not that those who are not liberals are the ones who changed the meaning of the term - its those who took the term 'liberal' and usurped it in the name of entirely different aims. the ones who are using newspeak are the current neoliberals. they believe that 'liberalism' means giving greater power to the government to decide what's best for the people. it is an elitist creed. it's the classic 'NIMBY' - Not In My Back Yard.

So if you are not liberal and don't value individual freedom as a principle what does liberal mean in a us context? If not a liberal democracy then what is america?

as above, a federal republic. perhaps what's needed is a new term, as i tossed out above - neolib, to go up against neocon. i feel my beliefs are very close to those of a classical liberal - less government power, less government intrusion, more individual liberty. that's what liberalism *used to mean*. but it's been turned on its head by the neolibs. they want to tell people what to do, and how to live their lives - just like the worst of the christian conservatives.

the funny thing is how much the far right and far left have in common. they both believe they have the moral high ground, and want to cram it down people's throats.

[David813]

Originally Posted by anastrophe

america is not a liberal democracy, if we're going to be accurate about things. the united states is a federal republic. that has a specific meaning, that describes the structure of our government. our political system has aspects and underpinnings of democracy, but thankfully, it is NOT a true democracy. true democracy revels in the tyranny of the majority, and *does not work* as a political system.


someone who believes social change is best performed by the government, through taxation. take the earnings of those who don't 'deserve' what they earned, and redistribute it to those who ostensibly do. create unelected bodies to control local government - planning commissions that lock down the ability to build new homes to prevent 'overcrowding' - which works great if you want to drive the value of your property through the roof.


liberalism has morphed into socialism. it came about as a melding of the far leftist creeds of "social justice" (is there any other kind of justice, pray?) and redistribution of wealth. in this sense, 'liberal' means 'being liberal with The People's money'. so it's rather the particular senses noted --

1. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
2. Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.

rather than liberal based upon liberty, but liberal based upon giving generously (from the public coffers).


however, i think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. it's not that those who are not liberals are the ones who changed the meaning of the term - its those who took the term 'liberal' and usurped it in the name of entirely different aims. the ones who are using newspeak are the current neoliberals. they believe that 'liberalism' means giving greater power to the government to decide what's best for the people. it is an elitist creed. it's the classic 'NIMBY' - Not In My Back Yard.


as above, a federal republic. perhaps what's needed is a new term, as i tossed out above - neolib, to go up against neocon. i feel my beliefs are very close to those of a classical liberal - less government power, less government intrusion, more individual liberty. that's what liberalism *used to mean*. but it's been turned on its head by the neolibs. they want to tell people what to do, and how to live their lives - just like the worst of the christian conservatives.

the funny thing is how much in common the far right and far left have in common. they both believe they have the moral high ground, and want to cram it down people's throats.

The far right is most assuredly guilty of your last paragraph. The left in the US is so watered down no one spits it back at them! I say "Take Off the Gloves!"

[anastrophe]

Originally Posted by David813

The far right is most assuredly guilty of your last paragraph. The left in the US is so watered down no one spits it back at them! I say "Take Off the Gloves!"

don't kid yourself. liberals are the one's who'd prefer you not have the right to say 'XYZ are evil, hateful people' or whatever. that's "Hate Speech", don't you know old friend, and according to them you have no first amendment right to it.

i can't stand it when you say that stuff. and i'll take you to task every time you say it. but i'll also defend to the death your right to say it.

[David813]

Originally Posted by anastrophe

don't kid yourself. liberals are the one's who'd prefer you not have the right to say 'XYZ are evil, hateful people' or whatever. that's "Hate Speech", don't you know old friend, and according to them you have no first amendment right to it.

i can't stand it when you say that stuff. and i'll take you to task every time you say it. but i'll also defend to the death your right to say it.

I disagree with your view. I would absolutely deny free speech rights to Nazis and Klansmen! Fred Phelps and David Duke! Plus I am not a liberal. There is nothing liberal about the far left.

[anastrophe]

Originally Posted by David813

I disagree with your view. I would absolutely deny free speech rights to Nazis and Klansmen! Fred Phelps and David Duke! Plus I am not a liberal. There is nothing liberal about the far left.

well, we disagree. muting those on the fringes is bad. it prevents people from seeing just how 'fringe' they really are. i *want* nazis and klansmen and fred phelps and david duke to have free speech, the more people who hear these nutcases, the better. they dig their own grave with their rhetoric. once you silence them, you're only a few steps from forgetting them. and that's more dangerous than a handful of whackos letting everyone know how whacko they are.

[anastrophe]

Originally Posted by anastrophe

well, we disagree. muting those on the fringes is bad. it prevents people from seeing just how 'fringe' they really are. i *want* nazis and klansmen and fred phelps and david duke to have free speech, the more people who hear these nutcases, the better. they dig their own grave with their rhetoric. once you silence them, you're only a few steps from forgetting them. and that's more dangerous than a handful of whackos letting everyone know how whacko they are.

to add one more thought - silencing evil people doesn't make them disappear. it only makes them stronger.