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Thread: Scotland's political map redrawn

  1. #11
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    Re: Scotland's political map redrawn

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    Every single human alive can be proud of the achievements of their ancestors as a whole. But nationalism is by its definition a minority declaring superiority over a majority. could be great description of the feeling your ancestors and mine had over the period they helped established an Empire with not just a rapacious looting fervour but a sense that they were bringing civilisation to the savage. What your modern nationalism will do with its sense of superiority is yet to be seen.
    You confuse I think modern nationalism with the racist nationalism of the nazis which was nationalism of an extreme kind as was the empire building flag waving patriotism all european nations were party to in the past that died it's death on the poppy fields of flanders and of ww2.

    Nationalism is not by definition a minority declaring superiority over a minority that is only one aspect of a complex issue.

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    Re: Scotland's political map redrawn

    Nationalism was going strong in Serbia Croatia and Monte***** quite recently. The rise of the far right across Europe and the US has been dramatic in recent years and the far right and nationalism are hand and glove.

    I agree part of the issue here is that we aren't quite talking about the same thing. I differentiate between nationalism and patriotism with the latter covering supporting sports teams and for example an appreciation of what has been contributed to the Arts and Sciences. It's an entirely positive thing in that we support our boys and girls when they compete and laud achievements, but we don't (or shouldn't) demean or belittle the opposition. If we do, we are sliding from patriotism into nationalism. Not a particularly vicious form, I grant you, but it does illustrate the difference. chuckle. I have to admit I don't always succeed in living up to this standard, but I do try.

    Nationalism to me is inherently racist and I don't think it ever entirely died. As you said, UKIP show worrying signs of it. I know from living there that Scots nationalism had an anti English racist component 30 years ago and nothing I've heard since has said it has gone away. The SNP has in recent years I've noticed made some efforts to curb this but well, it seemed rather half-hearted and we both know it's going to take some doing. Especially now so many of the English have noticed and are reacting, unfortunately, exactly as you'd expect. I have wondered if Salmond actually intended this as a way of encouraging the two nations to split but with hindsight I doubt it - it was just a bit of clumsiness from a politician moving onto a larger stage than before. He's shown himself to be a big enough thinker (though I always found him offputting as a politician) to know that hostility between us is in neither of our interests.

    Anti-nationalism is a big part of why I am so much in favour of the EU. It is at its core it seems to me, an anti-nationalist bastion. By leaving it we made a nationalist statement - the core of brexit was not pro-UK it seems to me, it was anti-EU. There has never been an admitted destination for brexit other than out. Nothing about where to and how we get there: During the referendum it was all how easy it would be. Now it's how the pain of the transition period will be worth it. But no clue about for what. Immigration some say; others flatly deny it. Sovereignty, said some. Hmm. Yes, every day I woke up and thought how oppressed I was that it was the European Court of Justice that was the final court of appeal. Ridiculous.
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  3. #13
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    Re: Scotland's political map redrawn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    Nationalism was going strong in Serbia Croatia and Monte***** quite recently. The rise of the far right across Europe and the US has been dramatic in recent years and the far right and nationalism are hand and glove.

    I agree part of the issue here is that we aren't quite talking about the same thing. I differentiate between nationalism and patriotism with the latter covering supporting sports teams and for example an appreciation of what has been contributed to the Arts and Sciences. It's an entirely positive thing in that we support our boys and girls when they compete and laud achievements, but we don't (or shouldn't) demean or belittle the opposition. If we do, we are sliding from patriotism into nationalism. Not a particularly vicious form, I grant you, but it does illustrate the difference. chuckle. I have to admit I don't always succeed in living up to this standard, but I do try.

    Nationalism to me is inherently racist and I don't think it ever entirely died. As you said, UKIP show worrying signs of it. I know from living there that Scots nationalism had an anti English racist component 30 years ago and nothing I've heard since has said it has gone away. The SNP has in recent years I've noticed made some efforts to curb this but well, it seemed rather half-hearted and we both know it's going to take some doing. Especially now so many of the English have noticed and are reacting, unfortunately, exactly as you'd expect. I have wondered if Salmond actually intended this as a way of encouraging the two nations to split but with hindsight I doubt it - it was just a bit of clumsiness from a politician moving onto a larger stage than before. He's shown himself to be a big enough thinker (though I always found him offputting as a politician) to know that hostility between us is in neither of our interests.

    Anti-nationalism is a big part of why I am so much in favour of the EU. It is at its core it seems to me, an anti-nationalist bastion. By leaving it we made a nationalist statement - the core of brexit was not pro-UK it seems to me, it was anti-EU. There has never been an admitted destination for brexit other than out. Nothing about where to and how we get there: During the referendum it was all how easy it would be. Now it's how the pain of the transition period will be worth it. But no clue about for what. Immigration some say; others flatly deny it. Sovereignty, said some. Hmm. Yes, every day I woke up and thought how oppressed I was that it was the European Court of Justice that was the final court of appeal. Ridiculous.
    Like I said I thinbk it is more complex than that I just don't see things the same way you do.

    Also from my perpective I am seeing the likes of the dailymail and ukip stirring up english nationalism often in the form of quite nasty anti-scottish and irish rhetoric. Actually and completely irrelevant engels despised the irish as well no doubt because he was living in engkland at the time.

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