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Thread: The Trump-Pence national security disaster

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    Re: The Trump-Pence national security disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    Not according to the history books. The war would have been over before the bombs were dropped had the US engaged Japan in discussing terms of surrender when the leaders of Japan were trying to bring things to an end. No such channel was enabled.
    I don't think it's that clear cut. While iirc you are correct there was a channel that was not fully used the Japanese authorities were still fighting among themselves about how to respond, there was a huge amount of suspicion and outright hatred on both sides at the end of a very horrible and long war not to mention the simple open racist assumptions that existed then much more powerfully. All the while the timetable for the enormous amphibious invasion ticked inexorably on and you couldn't easily say stop! wait! to the preparations and the casualty estimates for both sides were horrendous in the extreme (and given by this time the US had a lot of experience of amphibious invasion against the Japanese it's hard to argue convincingly against them).

    The dropping of the A-bombs was a tragedy no doubt. So was the firebombing of Tokyo and the treatment of prisoners by the Japanese and much else in that horrible war.
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    Re: The Trump-Pence national security disaster

    One wonders why America imposed its trade bans and shipping embargoes between 1938 and 1940 then. 74% of Japanese iron imports were US exports, as was 80% of its oil. Both were cut off completely by order of Roosevelt's White House.

    I don't imagine many people think Pearl Harbor would have been bombed had those embargoes not been imposed. They affected Japan's strategic interest.

    I'd say the War in the Pacific was triggered by America. By all means call it a horrible war but acknowledge responsibility for it breaking out in the first place.
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    Re: The Trump-Pence national security disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    I met him once, with a reliable witness (Betty). He claimed to be spot but he looked very like some depictions of god, particularly in the film Dogma - beardy, hair making off in all directions, slightly disturbing sense of humour... It wouldn't altogether surprise me if His prophet was a Dalmation. That's not too bad. It's if he starts referring to Himself as Singularity rather than spot that I'll get worried.

    We could try Thee and Thou-ing him a bit, chuck in a few Holies, see how he reacts?

    Perhaps they do God testing kits at Boots? Or Homebase?
    Spot looks like Alanis Morissette? Yikes.

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    Re: The Trump-Pence national security disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    One wonders why America imposed its trade bans and shipping embargoes between 1938 and 1940 then. 74% of Japanese iron imports were US exports, as was 80% of its oil. Both were cut off completely by order of Roosevelt's White House.

    I don't imagine many people think Pearl Harbor would have been bombed had those embargoes not been imposed. They affected Japan's strategic interest.

    I'd say the War in the Pacific was triggered by America. By all means call it a horrible war but acknowledge responsibility for it breaking out in the first place.
    Japan was already at war with all her neighbors. The US did not have to aid in the attacks on her neighbors, much of it resulting in horrible consequences for the civilian population. The Japanese were brutal arrogant racist bastards.

    It is a stretch to accuse the US of starting that war.
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    Re: The Trump-Pence national security disaster

    Not for Spot.

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    Re: The Trump-Pence national security disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    Japan was already at war with all her neighbors. The US did not have to aid in the attacks on her neighbors, much of it resulting in horrible consequences for the civilian population. The Japanese were brutal arrogant racist bastards.

    It is a stretch to accuse the US of starting that war.


    Damn right, "not for Spot". You said it yourself, "The US did not have to aid in the attacks on her neighbors". It was a deliberate choice of Roosevelt's White House to interfere in a matter over which the US had no natural, moral or legal jurisdiction. Like Iraq, and Libya, and Syrian. Like Nicaragua and Grenada and Vietnam. Keep writing the names of countries as they come to you.

    The policy is called American Exceptionalism and it slaughters foreigners in exchange for a higher domestic standard of living.

    We might consider the consequence of engaging with Japan. The victory of the Chinese Communists over the Nationalists by 1949, for example. Had Japan not been deprived of oil and iron and obliged to divert its armed forces toward America, 30 million Chinese wouldn't have died in the 1960s when Mao unleashed his power struggle for the Party. All of that happened because of Roosevelt's interference.
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    Re: The Trump-Pence national security disaster

    There was nowhere else Japan could make up for the oil and iron shortage?

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    Re: The Trump-Pence national security disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    There was nowhere else Japan could make up for the oil and iron shortage?
    Nevermind! I found the details. The English and Dutch had also imposed an embargo against Japan.

    And here I thought FDR was one of the good guys. After learning of his dislike for Japan, he might have done what Truman did anyway. I had previously thought: if only FDR hadn't died!

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    Re: The Trump-Pence national security disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    Damn right, "not for Spot". You said it yourself, "The US did not have to aid in the attacks on her neighbors". It was a deliberate choice of Roosevelt's White House to interfere in a matter over which the US had no natural, moral or legal jurisdiction.
    Exactly, and the US did not interfere. The US did nothing to stop the terrorism like the Nanking Massacre. The Japanese did that kind of thing all over the people they conquered.

    Seems Japan got a pass for doing the same kind of things their ally Nazi Germany.

    Welcome to the Eurocentric POV.
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    Re: The Trump-Pence national security disaster

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    Japan had been condemned in the League of Nations for its invasion of China in 1937 or thereabouts. Japan was widely believed to have faked the Marco Polo bridge incident that started it even back then. Countries were supposed to embargo Japan, which had gone thoroughly militaristic in the previous decades. Much of the blame there has to go to the victorious powers after WW1 who pretty much ignored Japan's contributions on blatantly racist grounds.

    However, Japan did not have to go militaristic. Their reasons for doing so largely centred around their God Emperor and Japanese exceptionalism. Perhaps the extent to which they had changed shows in their treatment of prisoners. In WW1 they had been noted for their courteous treatment of prisoners. Not so in WW2...
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