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Thread: Thoughts on the UK general election

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    Re: Thoughts on the UK general election

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    And strangely Tim Farron is looking good to me.
    I've had it with the lib dems they should have never gone in to coalition with the tories when it was announced you could almost hear the sound of their core support banging their heads off the walls .
    Last edited by Bryn Mawr; 06-02-2017 at 11:54 PM.

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    Re: Thoughts on the UK general election

    Just seen a report the Tory lead is down to a point. Again, polls have been unreliable in recent elections but the trend seems to suggest the lead is narrowing. I hope we can trust the polls at least for that!

    I've had it with the lib dems they should have never gone in to coalition with the tories when it was announced you could almost hear the sound of their core support banging their heads off the walls
    Yep, you said it was a terrible mistake at the time, iirc. I didn't have a problem with the Coalition. For me (and this is 20/20 hindsight) the mistake was not making tuition fees a red line issue like the EU. There were some achievements too: the minimum wage was Lib Dem, and a lot of the more recent development in and of renewables was down to Sir Edward Davey when he was Energy Minister.

    Hey ho. We don't know what a left wing brexit looks like so it's still a jump off the cliff on the assurance Paradise not rocks await below. Frankly I thinks it's rocks but I got pushed. I think what they want to do is put all the means of production and supply under state control; how far they will be able to is another matter. Personally I don't really want that but if brexit goes really horribly wrong then it might be necessary to feed everyone. One of the things that nags at me most about our situation is our high levels of indebtedness even before we brexit. We get away with it because we have been very reliable payers but if we hammer our biggest trading links our ability to pay will suffer. If we have a recession on top of that which I think is very likely then our ability to pay suffers worse and credit dries up. It's no different to a credit card, just bigger scales. If we leave our children and grandchildren, poorer than we are, have to repay our debt now, plus the debts that we run up over brexit. If we need an IMF bailout then we will look a lot like Greece does now, I fear.

    The best thing is not to do what the far right and the far left want us to do, not to do what Putin and Trump want us to do, not to do what the terrorists, murderers and racists want us to do which is leave and weaken the EU but stay and make it better. We still can.
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    Re: Thoughts on the UK general election

    I think what they want to do is put all the means of production and supply under state control
    How did you jump to that conclusion ?
    All their talking about is returning previously publicly owned utilities back into public hands
    I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth

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    Re: Thoughts on the UK general election

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    How did you jump to that conclusion ?
    All their talking about is returning previously publicly owned utilities back into public hands
    You don't give the patient the whole course in one go... Shrug. I dunno if they are still true to their basic principles but if they are then they want control of the means of production and supply because their socialist system doesn't work even in principle unless you have that. Corbyn rebelled a lot to stay true to his basic principles so I suspect he still is true to them. Perhaps he has some modern version of the control of the means of production and supply but if so he hasn't told us yet.

    We will:
    Bring private rail companies back into public ownership as their franchises expire.
    Regain control of energy supply networks through the alteration of operator license conditions, and transition to a publicly owned, decentralised energy system.
    Replace our dysfunctional water system with a network of regional publicly-owned water companies.
    Reverse the privatisation of Royal Mail at the earliest opportunity.
    from the Labour Party Manifesto 2017 Economy

    So it's not just gas electricity and water even here.

    By reforming the rules our companies operate under, we can make sure they stay focused on delivering shared wealth. Labour will amend company law so that directors owe a duty directly not only shareholders, but to employees, customers, the environment and the wider public, and we will consult on bringing forward appropriate legislation within this Parliament.
    from A New Deal for Business, Labour Party Manifesto 2017

    Sounds good in principle. But I do wonder if it's a way of controlling the means of production? Not sure. But nothing I've seen here contradicts Corbyn and McDonnel's fundamental left wing socialism. It's not how I'd ideally like the future to go but I like the Johson/Banks/Dacre/Fox brexit even less. The Corbyn version of brexit at least has a system in place that might be some use if brexit turns out to be really economically devastating.
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    Re: Thoughts on the UK general election

    I would go along with his declared intentions, then worry about your fears if and when it arises.
    I agree with him entirely up to now.
    Why meet trouble halfway ?
    I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth

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    Re: Thoughts on the UK general election

    This idea I'm meeting trouble half way?

    I'm not getting you, I think.
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    Re: Thoughts on the UK general election

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    This idea I'm meeting trouble half way?

    I'm not getting you, I think.
    You seem to think Corbyn wants a communist state along the lines of the old Russia.

    they want control of the means of production and supply because their socialist system doesn't work even in principle unless you have that.

    The way I see it is that he wants to reclaim all the previously publicly owned utilities that had been funded or bought into public hands over the years. Many are now in European hands with profits exiting the country, my water companies are both French owned.
    His ideology is that utilities should be run as non profit making for the good of the country, the opposite of the Tories that think even health care should be profitable.

    It makes sense to me.
    I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth

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    Re: Thoughts on the UK general election

    I'm an outright Corbynite, but I had qualms about voting Labour because of the inner Party canker of "Blue Labour" - the die-hard Blairites that make up the majority of the PLP that has always sought to overthrow him as being 'unelectable', despite his having 2 successive record mandates of the Party Membership. It is because of my support of Jeremy that I had 2nd thoughts about voting Labour because the most likely candidate of my ward was one who had openly opposed him & promoted "Blue Labour", and I did not want to give my vote to someone who would simply further the inner problems. However, the candidate this time is a supporter of Jeremy, so I am now morally comfortable in giving him my vote.

    Despite my being an outright Socialist, I never really believed that Labour would have a chance & thought that May knew exactly what she was doing, knowing full well that calling a General Election would increase her narrow majority. However, I have been amazed at the way Labour have shot up the polls in leaps & bounds - helped along the way by the flip-flopping of the Tory Manifesto. Mind you, there are times I sometimes wonder if the Tories are actually trying to lose the Election, as they don't want to be held to account for their overall failure, so that they can then pass the blame onto Labour & their handling of Brexit, so that at the next Election they might have additional support. Why else would they add extremely unpopular things in their manifesto, such as the reintroduction of fox hunting, lifting the ban on the ivory trade, and supporting the Naylor Report, which is a detailed plan on how to sell off the NHS as quickly as possible, including Government subsidies in order to facilitate a 2 for 1 (buy one get one free) deal?

    I have placed 2 £5 bets on Ladbrokes. One for Labour to have more votes, and the other for them to have an outright majority. Unfortunately, the odds are still Odds On for a Conservative victory, but even they have dropped from 1/33 to 2/9 & the 'unelectable' Jeremy Corbyn is looking more & more likely to be the next Prime Minister.

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    Re: Thoughts on the UK general election

    I'm in favour of state ownership of utilities and power, especially under brexit conditions. In fact, exactly because of desperate situations like brexit, or war. Not so sure about the railways - the old BR was no great shakes as I recall. Also pretty keen on the NHS which the tories want rid of more and more openly. Shrug. It's all pretty conjectural: everything depends on the negotiations, if we are stupid enough to leave. I think a hard brexit is the most likely result at present (this opinion subject to change at short notice) and will mean economic devastation. State ownership of the basics might help with mitigating the worst effects of that.

    I fear that brexit will mean the end of the NHS anyway. Brexit + tories = NHS certain death. Brexit + Corbyn = maybe something will survive. I've no faith in either set to do well in the negotiations but at least Corbyn means the alt right backers of brexit won't get the free rein they are after (people like Banks, Dacre, Murdoch and some far right US groups which appear to have been helping...).

    Stopping brexit is top priority (unlikely I grant you, but so much the best result that I won't stop fighting for it). Getting rid of bastards like Johnson, Fox and Davis is at least a step in the right direction.

    I'm not sure what Corbyn stands for. I'm sure he'd deny any idea he wants to recreate the old USSR here. I'm guessing he's got a vision of a socialist paradise very unlike anything Stalinist. It's just I don't believe in Utopias and think attempts to create them end up with gulags. Anyway, as I say, I'm not sure how important it is which of them stands in the way of the tsunami. They'll be swept away whoever they are. Perhaps I should add that I don't know whether brexit will be like a tsunami, though I think if we hard brexit it might be, or like a slowly rising tide over 5 years or more which just gradually drowns us. If it's the latter we should be able gradually to turn things round and have the tide recede at least a bit. But all we are likely to be doing is making up ground we have lost. For what?

    edit: Putting together a couple of articles I just read on the BBC site about the election, they start by saying the election is even more unpredictable than usual because of brexit and the terror threat but that the expectation overall in the parties themselves is that the conservatives are going to get a decent majority. It seems there is a clue to this in where the leaders have been campaigning: May has spent a lot of time in labour held seats the tories are targeting and also in seats with a strong ukip vote. The conclusion is she's trying to win seats. Corbyn has spent a lot more time in labour seats by comparison with the conclusion he's trying not to lose seats, if any strategy can be discerned. Corbyn's only hope was felt to be if he could get the young vote out in unprecedented numbers. He might, imo. The Lib Dems are targeting Remain voting seats but are expected to be buried.

    We'll see tomorrow.
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  10. #20
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    Re: Thoughts on the UK general election

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    It's ironic that the labour manifesto is utting economic policies more in line with capitalism than the tories wqho are fascist in all but name. or maybe not after labour was originally a social democratic party and has never really gone down the socialist paradise route and where do you get the idea that corbyn does?

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