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Thread: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    Yeah, have to admit I was totally unaware that there had been any element to the day devoted to the devolved Institutions. Was there anything on Wales and NI in this?

    A lot has happened overnight as well - it now seems May has not quite lied to the Remain rebels who didn't in the end rebel. However it also seems she not quite lied to the brexiters too about what she said to the Remainers. See my previous post about the art of compromise.

    However I did notice several Remainers who spoke referred to the personal word of the PM they had received and were explicit that they had accepted that word in good faith. If they really meant it then May has played her last card and won't be able to give a last minute concession (as she has twice now) in the future, UNLESS she delivers on what the Remainers understood her word to have been and if she does then the brexiters will claim she lied to them. It has however, as it stands, become a closed issue for this Parliament - unless a future crisis brings it back.

    IF I have understood it correctly, the Remainers have been deceived because they thought they had a commitment to a further amendment but May is apparently claiming to brexiters that she only committed to DISCUSS an amendment with the implication that there would be no more than discussions, which would keep her word to both sides but give the brexiters what they want. Apart from anything there is no way she'll reopen this issue having got it through Parliament, I think. Dead and gone and she'll hope she can whip up a special situation that demands their party loyalty for the next crisis.

    This post is also relevant to my points about the honesty and otherwise of politicians. May has given her word to two opposing sides. She seems to feel she has been clever because her careful wording means she has not in the literal sense, lied to either. However she will I think find that won't wash with Remainers who thought they had received an assurance and won't, I suspect, laugh cheerily and say, "Oh! Caught out by those semantics again! Hohohoho. Very clever! I will follow this Leader wherever she goes!"

    And that means that in a future Brexit crisis the PM's word will not avert a rebellion.

    A very angry Anna Soubry, who appears to have aged 10 years in the last 1, lambasting cowardly Remainers in Business, in the Commons, in Gov't and even in the Cabinet for grabbing her for a quiet word, expressing their despair at Brexit, telling her well done and keep going, and NEVER breaking cover and speaking out themselves.

    It's all ongoing of course. I'm hopping around trying to find it now...

    ...and I can't click on the Scots Nat article without getting cookied by a lot of people I've never heard of and I can't seem to say no to it so haven't gone any further.

    edit: They've just left Gove at the Select Committees and are setting up for Parliament today: Welsh Questions.
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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    Quote Originally Posted by FourPart View Post
    It was always obvious that there were going to be initial dips in the value of the Pound as a result of the Referendum. However, this is not directly a result of whether we're in or out of the EU. It's a matter of uncertainty one way or the other. If you look at a graph demonstrating the value of the pound on a daily / weekly basis, every time you see a dip is when there has been something in the news that puts some question over what is happening. When there was question about whether Article 50 would be invoked it dipped. Once it had been done it peaked again. Then, when there were questions as to whether or not it would be overruled, it dipped again, then once it was determined that it would stay in place it peaked again.

    The simple point is that business requires some clarification of exactly what the situation is going to be so that they can make some level of contingency for it, whatever the outcome. The problem is that the Tories never had a Plan B for the unlikely event of the result being to leave. They were far too cock sure it would be overwhelmingly to Remain. And least Labour had formulated some plan, despite their also being certain it would be Remain. Even now it seems as if there is no positive plan in mind & time is rapidly running out. When challenged over & over again to state when they would release their White Paper on what their plans were May repeatedly dodged the question & refused to answer. One has to ask why.

    Brexit is not the problem. It is the management of Brexit that is the real problem. Both sides of the House are agreed that we abide by the result of the Referendum, so it is accepted that we are leaving. Let us take that as a moot point. Now comes the question of how we go about it. It is a Cross Party issue, and I don't believe any individual Party has all the answers, so I believe that all Parties concerned need to get together on a Cross Party Committee & sort out a deal that is best for the COUNTRY, not the PARTY.
    Brexit is completely the problem. Russian interference in the referendum is the problem. US billionaire interference via Cambridge Analytica is the problem. The Daily Lying ****ing Mail is the problem. Banks is the problem, with his ties to BeLeave and Russians. Johnson is the problem with his LIES. Another far right brexiter setting up to murder a Labour MP is the problem. YOUR people.

    Take some responsibility for what you have done, the car smash you are making of this country.

    Two years - TWO YEARS into this process and you morons cannot decide what you want. You lied about what was on offer and THAT is why it is a disaster. You lied about how easy it would be. You lied about how much it would cost. Most of the claims made against the EU are lies - immigration being a big one.

    Two out of the three forecasts (good, medium, bad) produced by your department of Exiting the EU - Davis' own department - have food and medical shortages within a fortnight. If this was the easiest negotiation ever why is that? Why after two years if the EU would cave to our demands cannot brexiters anywhere agree even now on what Brexit even is let alone what our demands are?

    It's because they told so many lies they started to believe them themselves, and now they can't tell the difference between their lies and reality, and reality doesn't even notice their lies and runs roughshod over our ill-made preparations and smashes lives. Unless your lot can get it together you will watch your vote starve and kill people, on two out of three scenarios. What chance do you think we have of reaching a scenario marked "good" that does not involve starving and killing people through lack of medical supplies and food?

    Project Fear you lot called it. Now your own side has produced studies that make Project Fear look as though it massively lacked ambition.
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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    gmc: Get on the Parliament Channel now - Scots in action.
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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    They've just walked out in solidarity with a member who refused to take his seat after his request for a vote now rather than at the end of the session was refused. I couldn't follow the exact detail even though I was watching it.


    This is PMQ's - we haven't even got to the amendments yet. Walking was dramatic but is the gesture enough?

    No idea if they are out for the day or just PMQ's. I think the MP who refused to take his seat is out for the day.
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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    Ah - we get the reasons for what appears to have been a pre-arranged publicity stunt by the SNP. The issue was time available, all procedures were correctly followed and SNP members had intervened. There's a genuine issue about time, but the Scots aren't alone in that - all these issues need more time. Imagine what it would have been like in the original 1 day allocated.


    Lib Dem and Labour Scots MPs not impressed by what they have called a childish stunt.

    edit: He's out for the day, the other SNP members can come back if they want but the Opposition is now down one vote at least.
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  6. #16
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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    Ah - we get the reasons for what appears to have been a pre-arranged publicity stunt by the SNP. The issue was time available, all procedures were correctly followed and SNP members had intervened. There's a genuine issue about time, but the Scots aren't alone in that - all these issues need more time. Imagine what it would have been like in the original 1 day allocated.


    Lib Dem and Labour Scots MPs not impressed by what they have called a childish stunt.

    edit: He's out for the day, the other SNP members can come back if they want but the Opposition is now down one vote at least.
    It's not about the time allocated the scottish parliament has rejected the brexit bill. The tories are trying to take away the devolved powers from scotland for the last twenty years years westminster has not overuled the scottish parliament on devolved issues they allocated 15 minutes to discuss the part of the bill that will remove authority from the scottish parliament and had a tory MP. not even a scottish one talk for that 15 minutes. Not a single scottish MP waas allowed to speak on the matter. The tories want to undo devolution and now their naked contempt fopr scortland is there for all to see.

    Bear in mind this is about things like privatising the nhs, doing deals with the US and giving away thew special status pof scottish and english goods, it's about fracking - the scottish parliemant has imposed a moratorium on fracking this means for instance that westminster will be able to allow it to go ahead regardless of who objects - I live in west lothian I don't want fracking at any price.

    Calling it a stunt diminishes the seriousaness of it all and prevents people like you actually being inclined to see what all the fuss is about. At least now this is beinmg reported on.

    WATCH: Tory MP in vile 'suicide' heckle towards SNP in Commons | The National

    Amid the democratic outrage that resulted in that situation, SNP Westminster leader Ian Blackford asked: "Mr Speaker, what options are available to us in this house to ensure that the Government understands real concern among people in Scotland at this unprecedented power grab, and how can we make sure that our voices are heard?"

    READ MORE: Westminster votes through power grab on Scotland in 15 minutes

    Immediately after the MP asks "what options are available", an MP can be heard shouting "suicide".
    The speaker chose to ignore that do you wonder the snp are getting fed up. There are also tory MP's openly gloating about how little influence the snp have on the union. Keep it up boys amd you might not have a union for much longer.

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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    I was watching it live, not reading reports. It was Scots Labour and Lib Dem MPs who called it a childish stunt. Yesterday I missed a lot of it but as far as I'm aware, England didn't get any time, Wales got no time, NI got no time - well other than the Border is a problem - and in that context 15 mins for Scotland looks generous. 2 days for the whole UK debate is not enough.


    It was a stunt, designed to make it look as though Scotland was being picked on when it wasn't. Shabby, imo. And unnecessary.

    And yeah, the far right of the tory party are gloating. You can occasionally hear them. They are ****ing foul and frankly people I regard as total filth. Start considering that they are "the English" and I'll have to assume that the No Friends South of the Border crowd are all Scots north of it. Sauce for the goose. As to the Speaker ignoring the abuse, the SNP sit at the far end of the Chamber from the Speaker and if the microphone picked up the heckle it was from fairly close by the SNP. Did he even hear it?

    Edit: It does suggest that the Indyref 2 campaign has started.
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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    I was watching it live, not reading reports. It was Scots Labour and Lib Dem MPs who called it a childish stunt. Yesterday I missed a lot of it but as far as I'm aware, England didn't get any time, Wales got no time, NI got no time - well other than the Border is a problem - and in that context 15 mins for Scotland looks generous. 2 days for the whole UK debate is not enough.


    It was a stunt, designed to make it look as though Scotland was being picked on when it wasn't. Shabby, imo. And unnecessary.

    And yeah, the far right of the tory party are gloating. You can occasionally hear them. They are ****ing foul and frankly people I regard as total filth. Start considering that they are "the English" and I'll have to assume that the No Friends South of the Border crowd are all Scots north of it. Sauce for the goose. As to the Speaker ignoring the abuse, the SNP sit at the far end of the Chamber from the Speaker and if the microphone picked up the heckle it was from fairly close by the SNP. Did he even hear it?

    Edit: It does suggest that the Indyref 2 campaign has started.
    They would wouldn't they they are after all doing what they are told by their party whips and abstaining. You are still missing the point. The scottish parliament voted to reject the brexit bill. Westminster as part of thye devolution agreement is not supposed to impose legislation on scotland against the express opposition of the scottish government and for the last 20 years they have not done so. Not only are they now doing so they are deliberately making sure that the matter does not get a hearing. It was a stunt to get the matter brought to the public's attention in thgat it seems to have been successful. In effect the westminster parliemant is an engilsh one and does not represent the whole of the UK to claim england didn't get any time is nonsese. This is supposed to be a united kingdom of four seperate nations united together for the common good. Treating one of those country's with contempt does not say much for the prospects for the future. The welsh can do what they want realistically they have no prospect of being able to survive on their own also umnlike scotland they do not have a seperate legal and education system ours has been seperate since the act of union and is in many qways quite different from the english one. This isn't about disliking the english although how scottish nationalism is somehow divisive and the jingoistic, racist nationalism of ukip et al is not is something poerhaops the daily mail can explain.

    The snp manifesto stated that thyey accepted the referendum results if there was a material change of circumstances they would go reserve the option of another referendum they were elected to the scottish parliament with a proportional representation election. The parties that bang on about a second referendum all the time are the tories and labour they are always bringing the matter up, indeed ruth davidson brings it up ad nauseum a since it is easioer than having to answer question about what her party is up to. Indyref2 is now very much on the cards but the momentun is not coming from the snp. The snp would not necessarily be elected to office after independence in part a large part of their success was due to new labour not being left wing enough not to being the corruption rife amongst labour and tory councillors.

    I suggest you watch what is happening in northen ireland they also voted to remain the dup, if you recall are the ones responsible for there being no government in stormont and now that ireland seems to be increasingly secular the likelihood of unification draws ever nearer. It;s npt just the scots the tories are pissing off.

    You are right two days is not enough the brexitteers are determined to get this railroaded through no matter what preferable by emasculating parliament ands it looks like they are going to succeed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...-jobs-solihull

    You'd think the daily mail would be all over that would'nt you? Never mind perhaps when we make our super dooper deal with india post brexit we can get tata to build something else in thye meantime brexut is wonderful in this the best of all possible brexiteer paradises.

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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    If that's the only time in the brexit process the Scottish devolution issue is raised then you have a point - I've been assuming this was all about the amendments coming back from the Lords and Scottish Devolution would have its own separate discussion - there are whole areas these last debates did not cover, or only slightly covered. But if that was the ONLY time Scottish Devolution is due to come up from now on then fair enough. Sneaky May attempting to shut that one down before it starts, if that's the case. Dumb and short-sighted as ever.

    I don't expect NI or Scotland to stay in the UK after a hard brexit. I think Scotland will be gone within 5 years, NI within 10. I can't really see May or Corbyn negotiating a Brexit that will be any sort of success, all they might possibly do is slow that break up process. But one way or another I think brexit means the break up of the UK.

    I haven't watched a day in the Commons straight through like that for a long time and I was reminded what a very personal, social thing politics is, in our Parliament, and there's much more cross-party discussion goes on than formal debates or things like PMQ's give the impression. That was true even before the referendum. Now with both main parties split it seems to have increased enormously.

    edit: I would be surprised that the Lib Dem Scots didn't react if that was the ONLY time Scottish Devolution was due to come up - the Lib Dems support Devolution (a policy I agree with).
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  10. #20
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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

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    It is the only time after the bill is passed the taking away of powers can't be stopped. May has consistently refused to even meet with thge SNP despite them being the third largest party in the house. Mundell is a tory to say he speaks for scotland on this is obscene. The tories quite clearly want to end devolution or at least emasculte the scottish parliament. NB you wil notice none of this is being discussed in the mainstream newspapers or TV. Question time this week, given what has happened you would think someone from the snp would feature but they don't. During the first referendul nigel farage was on more often than any snp msp. George galloway was on thirteen times.

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