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Thread: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    Hmm. We're all guessing what's going on in an unprecedented situation at least to some extent I think. But if that defeat means you've lost on this issue then there a whole lot of other issues that have also been lost on including anyone but Ministers having any say on the future. For all of us, not just the Scots.

    My impression is that the whole Amendments issue comes down to a meaningful vote for Parliament. The Scottish Devolution issue isn't settled by this - if May has attempted a power grab it just won't work - it will play into the SNP's hands and is being used for exactly that purpose whether that was the intention or not. I don't think the Lib Dem MPs or Labour Scots would have stayed quiet on a Devolution issue if that was it and all about it. Certainly not if the SNP MPs had talked to them. But to southern eyes, the SNP are coming across as much like the DUP these days.

    Actually, there has been a change. A year or two ago the SNP were a constructive force in Parliament and asked good questions. Now they give the impression their sole purpose is to be victims. Perhaps I'm overstating but there's been a definite shift in that sort of direction. More like UKIP in the EU Parliament perhaps? Not impressed by the leader. Comes across as a right bog head.


    If that was the end of the matter on the devolution powers that were supposed to be happening - 15 minutes and dead - then you've every right to be upset and you've had Indyref2 handed you on a plate. Effectively, you've won. It'll take a while to play out but that will be the result.

    Agree completely this Tory government is trying to kill devolution. That is their track record and they are the Conservative and Unionist Party when given their full title, iirc.

    There are going to be a number of other crunches before the end. Not only are the tories teetering on the edge of a split now (if May doesn't keep her word to the rebels, as understood by them, that's pretty much it, I think) but there were 6 Labour front bench resignations so they could vote against their Party on the matter.


    This isn't the end. Things are just starting to hot up.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    Both labour and the lib dems voted to reject the brexit bill but they are against independence they're not likely to support the snp that's why they abstaineed on the vote in westminster - doing what their party told them to do and not sticking uyp for scotland. When tony blair bought in devolution labour thought it would kill off independence altogether that is hasn't is due to labours incompetence in both local and in the scottish government. Tony Blair almost killed off the labour party

    Actually, there has been a change. A year or two ago the SNP were a constructive force in Parliament and asked good questions. Now they give the impression their sole purpose is to be victims. Perhaps I'm overstating but there's been a definite shift in that sort of direction. More like UKIP in the EU Parliament perhaps? Not impressed by the leader. Comes across as a right bog head.
    Maybe you didn't gewt the point but they are not being allowed to speak and don't forget scotland is not just another county it is one of the nations that make up the united kingdom.

    Mhairi Black: Every promise we were made in 2014 has now been broken | The National

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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    Look at the paper you are reading. Spot the agenda?

    No bloody bugger is being allowed to speak! Lots of people are going doolally about it!

    Scottish Devolution is not being singled out, it is just the most important thing to you and you are noticing it most for that reason but everything else is being buggered too!

    Notice the person most behind the rebellion? Tory MP Dominic Grieve. He's the bloke who has stuck his head up and said, "Here's the line." Not all Tories are all bad by definition.

    edit: We are not getting across to eachother.


    Hmm.


    All I can do at present is say that Scottish devolution is just one of the issues going on that cover the whole of the UK including Scotland and the SNP in Westminster are NOT impressing and making friends. Look back at the timing on this thread: there isn't time for a whipped response. That was a spontaneous reaction to what they believed was a pre-planned publicity stunt. Really - check the timing differences in my posts..
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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    Look at the paper you are reading. Spot the agenda?
    Well knock me sideways with a candlestick, a scottish paper called the national and I never noticed it's agenda.

    Joking aside I use it in posts cos quite frankly you won't find many of the issues in any of the mainstream media.

    Scottish devolution is being singled out that's the whole point. Don't forget none of the promises made during the indyref have been kept most scots are well aware of that.

    Yes there are other issues involved and you are right in that living in scotland makes devolution of pressing concern. Methinks other parts of the country are beginning to grasp the disaster brexit is going to be but those other matters are not likely to lead to the break up of the united kingdom. It's something that should concern you - we would be OK not so sure about england and wales not with the tories in charge..

    I see theresa may is giving money to the nhs - the brexit bounce and funnily enough not a single one of the tory press seems able to do the basic arithmetic and opint out ten years of less than inflation increases on spending on the nhs is in actual fact a real terms cut in funding. 1% growth in the economy more than covers what we give to the eu since brexit growth is in the toilet and likely to get flushed.

    Heard a lovely term during a discussion - brexidiot.

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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    Well, the stunt certainly had an effect - 7,000+ new members for the SNP, according to Andrew Neil on Sunday.

    In a way, that we disagree on the exact importance of the issue is secondary: We do both agree it is important and there are also a number of other important issues being fought over.

    Agree too that more people are beginning to see what a disaster we have coming. But I think there are great swathes of England and Wales which voted Leave and nothing has changed as far as they are concerned - it's all fake news and traitors and everything is fine really, or will be once we have left. After we have left they will blame Remainers, the BBC and the Governor of the Bank of England for everything. (Some already are, which is why I am so confident)

    It makes no difference to me if they are attempting to have their cake and eat it with a far right or far left agenda, they are making England unbearable. Fortunately there are some signs contacting the MP has had an effect on my lodger's situation - I haven't seen the emails but he's been in contact and things appear to be happening - even some money!!! However, given one call to sort this out has been booked for the 4th July (by them) it isn't going to be quick. However I will be moving when I can and the Borders still looks like the destination, ready for major smuggling operations.

    Brexidiot, brextit, or just plain ****wit - all much the same. My favourite these days is Gammon: Fat, jowly faces red with rage on Question Time. They'll still be the same after brexit because nothing ever pleases them.

    Rules change after brexit, and that refers to brexiters too. After brexit they are simply resources to be used as convenient. It's dog eat dog after brexit. No social consideration, just the rule of the jungle. The powerful will thrive and the weak will go to the wall: it always happens when people are fooled into thinking Utopia is just round the corner.


    Just after the referendum I posted elsewhere lamenting the disaster. "How bad could it get?" I was asked by people who thought the worst would be a recession for a year or so them back to normal. When I said malnutrition or possibly even starvation in the worst affected areas I was laughed at. Now we see that of the 3 leaked studies into the effects of good, medium and bad brexit we see that 2 of the 3 predict food and medical shortages within days.
    The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
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  6. #26
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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    Give you an example of just one of the reasons scots are upset at the power grab

    Ineos loses legal challenge against Scottish Government's fracking ban | The National

    The scottish government wilkl not be able to stop fracking just as councils in england cannot stop fracking after the governmment changes the planning regulations so local councils

    https://drillordrop.com/2015/08/13/m...-applications/

    As widely predicted, the government has announced measures to take decisions on fracking plans out of local authority hands. It will also consider ruling where companies appeal against a refusal of planning permission.

    A statement this morning by the Energy Secretary, Amber Rudd, and the Communities’ Secretary, Greg Clark, said shale gas applications would be “fast-tracked” through what they described as a “new, dedicated planning process”.
    The reason they want the powers is so they can asset strip the UK and for whose benefit? You tell me I'm not in the least cynical about this.

    Don't know if you will the time to watch this but it is informative.

    https://livestream.com/independencel...deos/172829355

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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    To me, that is a UK wide issue, not a Scottish Devolution issue: All Local Councils are facing the same issue across the UK. Scotland does have a solution available that is not available to English Councils: Leave; and I can see how, if you are already committed to Scottish Independence, this is another good reason for it.


    I am, reluctantly and only because of brexit, a supporter of Scottish independence from the UK and membership of the EU. I don't feel I am choosing between good and bad, I feel I am choosing between bad and worse.

    Incidentally, it might interest you to know that I think I understand now how we ended up with fracking as an issue and it is pretty much down to Sir Edward Davey. As far as I have been able to piece it together it goes like this:

    He was appointed Minister for Climate Change and Energy in the Coalition Government. His brief was to solve the energy crisis that is looming as we pass peak oil and face brownouts by the 2030s unless we have a solution up and running before then. Being Minister for Climate Change as well had a big impact on his approach. He also seems to have wanted to be sure we were not reliant on any single foreign power for our energy, particularly Russia. His solution was to diversify our energy sources as much as possible, encouraging wind and water power experiments but also fracking and nuclear, and Hinckley with its Chinese connection looks like a deliberate counter to the inevitable fact we will be buying gas from Russia.

    I can't say I agree with all his solutions totally but I can see the logic, and it's worth noting that under his plan Local Councils could block fracking.

    edit: crunch day today in Parliament.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    I can't say I agree with all his solutions totally but I can see the logic, and it's worth noting that under his plan Local Councils could block fracking.
    But now they can no longer do so.

    Guess where a large percentage of the shale oil reserves are located - scotland. Who wqill benefit from fracking? Certainly not the locals who will be left withn the consequences. It's not as though we don't have viable alternatives.

    Mundell is now on record - during the debate on the sewell convention - as stating Scotland is not a partner of the UK, it is part of the UK. I suspect he would lose his seat in another general election.

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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

    But now they can no longer do so.
    Yup. He was though acting in line with Liberal principle and devolving the decision as locally as he could. If you can't do something because a future government might change it then there's little that can ever be done.


    chuckle. Perhaps it might be of some comfort to you to know there are also fracking possibilities in the Surrey commuter belt. Might concentrate a few big business and political minds if they are flaring off unwanted gas of a quiet evening or weekend at their local fracking site...

    Technically Mundell is correct. We are all part of the UK not partners with it. If Scotland leaves then it might choose to be a partner with the UK in some matters, it might not.

    If Indyref2 isn't underway it looks as though Sturgeon is doing a good test of the waters while May's attention is elsewhere.

    And Grieve backed down. He seems to believe Parliament can still intervene and does know about this sort of thing, but others are sure fairly sure he's been fooled. As things stand it seems to me he's been fooled; maybe he'll pull some procedural rabbit out of the hat if needed. Don't know. Doubt it. Looks to me as if the rebels have made the classic error: not this time, not this time, not this time, too late.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Leave vote won by electoral cheating and lies

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    Sorry quotation box seems not to be working.

    "Technically Mundell is correct. We are all part of the UK not partners with it. If Scotland leaves then it might choose to be a partner with the UK in some matters, it might not"

    Actually no he's not. It's a union of diverse nations for the common good. If remaining is no longer in the common good then any nation reserves the right to leave that union.

    Maybe you don't remember the "vow"

    ""The Vow was a joint statement by the leaders of the three main unionist parties, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg, promising more powers for Scotland in the event of a No vote. Included in The Vow was that in the event of a No vote:

    The Scottish parliament would be permanent
    Extensive new devolved powers would be delivered
    The Barnett formula for funding Scottish Government expenditure would continue

    The Vow was published in the Daily Record,[5] one of the main tabloid newspapers in Scotland that also backed a No vote in the referendum. The explanation and background to the publication of The Vow was explained in the Daily Record itself one year after the referendum when it outlined that following a poll showing the 'Yes' side ahead, it was felt that firm promises of more powers were required from the 'No' side.[6]""

    Sorry quatations and bold type not working at all.

    Most scots do. The first two just went out the window. Clearly the tories intend to undo devolution.

    https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/ar...-independence/

    “I can’t remain silent as [Theresa] May, [David] Davis, [Jacob] Rees-Mogg, [Boris] Johnson and [Michael] Gove undermine the stability of a continent that has largely been at peace for 70 years.”

    Mr Foote admitted that an independent Scotland would face “financial challenges” in the years after a Yes vote.

    “The difficult decisions our independent nation would face and the sacrifices we may need to make do trouble me,” he wrote.

    “But what troubles me more is the prospect of bequeathing to my daughters an isolated Britain governed indefinitely by the progeny of Rees-Mogg and their ilk.

    “I have reconciled that independence would herald good and bad. I trust in us to solve the problems that will come our way. If so many other countries can, it is inconceivable that Scotland can’t.”

    Oh and in case you are wondering what other assets are up for grabs

    Westminster's 'money grab' slammed after £167m sale of valuable Scottish asset | The National

    Trust me I'm a tory just doesn't work any more nor does the libdem I'm a well meaning idiot or labour's well who knows what they stand for any more. Perhaps they are akin to the orchestra that played while the titanic went down.

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