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Thread: Well, that was an interesting G7

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    Re: Well, that was an interesting G7

    The more I read about this the more complicated it seems.

    I've whined and cried about illegal immigration of maybe the last 30 years or so.

    If nothing else, that guy in the White House got everybody's attention.

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    Re: Well, that was an interesting G7

    Illegal immigration is a problem - accepted. It is one of many problems we face. Many of these problems have solutions that we, as civilised free peoples, cannot use because no matter how good the result might be, we'd have to commit terrible acts to achieve it. So in Europe is it regarded by many as not acceptable to solve our refugee/migrant issue by sinking the boats full of women and kids and leaving them to drown - even though it would solve most of the problem in a few weeks.

    It was the great lesson of WW2 and why we have the UN. It's also worth remembering that the folks involved in this have all become worse people because of it. The guy in the recording of a lot of crying kids saying all they need is a conductor, or the ones standing round a crying small child because they are ordered not to comfort migrants, and obeying orders, all of them have been made worse and have made themselves worse by going along with it. This or similar acts will be easier for them in the future (unless they have a good look in the mirror pretty quick and face what they have been involved with). Trump corrupts everything and everyone he touches.

    It also is a graphic demonstrations of how worse atrocities happen: did anyone involved resign, or protest, or even complain? Peer group conformity, training and authority figures are a potent combination. We know that from the Milgram experiments done after the 2nd WW when a US psychologist wanted to find out how so many ordinary people could be made to commit atrocities as so many Germans had, even if they weren't Nazis. Milgram got ordinary people off the street to deliver what they thought were fatal electric shocks to test subjects when ordered to do so by the people in white coats running the experiment. The Nazis got people to torture and murder jews, Christians, homosexuals, heterosexuals, women, children, men - anyone, if ordered. What it seems to come down to is that we will obey trusted authority figures, even if ordered to do terrible and illegal things, in almost all cases. It's also true with peer pressure and the urge to go along with the group. Combine the two...

    It's a horrible thing but true that people, ordinary people, not monsters, can be trained to do terrible things. All the US officials and people on the ground actually putting this policy into practice have been led a few steps down the path that leads to gulags and death camps by Trump and his policy.

    It's also true that mostly the people who do these things don't suffer for it immediately, but the Nazis noticed that people who did the killing of the defenceless generally began to deteriorate, with alcoholism increasing, and also emotional and psychological problems in many cases. It is likely that some of the people involved with putting this US policy into practice will also suffer for it. They may be able to tough it out, but some will pay. Others of course will sleep soundly, unaffected, with a few enjoying their work.

    Not long ago we tortured people to death in public, and people came from miles around for the spectacle and holiday. Roman Circuses were orgies of blood and horror. Savagery is not far below the surface of humanity; modern civilisation really is a thin and recent veneer and it can be broken quite easily.
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    Re: Well, that was an interesting G7

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    Illegal immigration is a problem - accepted. It is one of many problems we face. Many of these problems have solutions that we, as civilised free peoples, cannot use because no matter how good the result might be, we'd have to commit terrible acts to achieve it. So in Europe is it regarded by many as not acceptable to solve our refugee/migrant issue by sinking the boats full of women and kids and leaving them to drown - even though it would solve most of the problem in a few weeks.

    It was the great lesson of WW2 and why we have the UN. It's also worth remembering that the folks involved in this have all become worse people because of it. The guy in the recording of a lot of crying kids saying all they need is a conductor, or the ones standing round a crying small child because they are ordered not to comfort migrants, and obeying orders, all of them have been made worse and have made themselves worse by going along with it. This or similar acts will be easier for them in the future (unless they have a good look in the mirror pretty quick and face what they have been involved with). Trump corrupts everything and everyone he touches.

    It also is a graphic demonstrations of how worse atrocities happen: did anyone involved resign, or protest, or even complain? Peer group conformity, training and authority figures are a potent combination. We know that from the Milgram experiments done after the 2nd WW when a US psychologist wanted to find out how so many ordinary people could be made to commit atrocities as so many Germans had, even if they weren't Nazis. Milgram got ordinary people off the street to deliver what they thought were fatal electric shocks to test subjects when ordered to do so by the people in white coats running the experiment. The Nazis got people to torture and murder jews, Christians, homosexuals, heterosexuals, women, children, men - anyone, if ordered. What it seems to come down to is that we will obey trusted authority figures, even if ordered to do terrible and illegal things, in almost all cases. It's also true with peer pressure and the urge to go along with the group. Combine the two...

    It's a horrible thing but true that people, ordinary people, not monsters, can be trained to do terrible things. All the US officials and people on the ground actually putting this policy into practice have been led a few steps down the path that leads to gulags and death camps by Trump and his policy.

    It's also true that mostly the people who do these things don't suffer for it immediately, but the Nazis noticed that people who did the killing of the defenceless generally began to deteriorate, with alcoholism increasing, and also emotional and psychological problems in many cases. It is likely that some of the people involved with putting this US policy into practice will also suffer for it. They may be able to tough it out, but some will pay. Others of course will sleep soundly, unaffected, with a few enjoying their work.

    Not long ago we tortured people to death in public, and people came from miles around for the spectacle and holiday. Roman Circuses were orgies of blood and horror. Savagery is not far below the surface of humanity; modern civilisation really is a thin and recent veneer and it can be broken quite easily.
    I cannot imagine this



    happening in the United States, for any reason.

    There are lots of horror stories about migrating people suffering abuse in Mexico as they try to sneak into the US.

    The Mexican Government condones this, kinda making Trump lood good in comparson.
    What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? - W. C. Fields

    A woman drove me to drink and I didn’t even have the decency to thank her. - W. C. Fields

  4. #24
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    Re: Well, that was an interesting G7

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    I cannot imagine this



    happening in the United States, for any reason.

    There are lots of horror stories about migrating people suffering abuse in Mexico as they try to sneak into the US.

    The Mexican Government condones this, kinda making Trump lood good in comparson.
    You are responsible for what you do as a human being. he is worse than me is no defence or justification at all. Trump was elected president he is not a dictator you have a system of government with checks built in to curb the power of the executive branch of government. You do nothing you condone it. No one alive today is responsible far what was done in the past but we are for what is done today. It's now an accepted tenet with regard to human rights and one that was established at the nuremberg trials that the defence of following orders is no defence at all - a principle established in large part by the US at nuremburg trials. Nothing is ever that simple (the firebombing of german cities and the deliberate targeting of civilans is often cited as an example of double standards and I'm fairly sure there were occasions when british and allied troops didn't piss about taking prisoners.) but all it would take is one of the republicans to argue that the immigrants are not entitled to protection under human rights legislation and you can almost see the jackboots going on.

    Oh wait maybe that's next.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/u...an-rights.html

    Someone somewhere has probably already argued that because the parents broke the law we should have no sympathy for the children they brought with them and that the parents are responsible for the cages the children find themselves in not those who put them there.

    Cheer up though at least your government wants to improveyour economy ours wants to destroy ours.

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    Re: Well, that was an interesting G7

    I've recovered the memory I had of Red Clydeside and is isn't out of books. I heard from a descendent of someone involved, or who had heard from the descendent of someone involved so I suspect it was at St Andrews and the story was that the junior officers were all set to start the revolution but they had to get the keys of the Armoury from the RSM and he refused and the revolution never got off the ground.


    Niall Paterson, I think it was who told me. It's even possible you might know the name - went on to have a career in Scottish TV. Kids' programmes, I think.
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    Re: Well, that was an interesting G7

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    I've recovered the memory I had of Red Clydeside and is isn't out of books. I heard from a descendent of someone involved, or who had heard from the descendent of someone involved so I suspect it was at St Andrews and the story was that the junior officers were all set to start the revolution but they had to get the keys of the Armoury from the RSM and he refused and the revolution never got off the ground.


    Niall Paterson, I think it was who told me. It's even possible you might know the name - went on to have a career in Scottish TV. Kids' programmes, I think.
    Maybe you should do some reading of books. Soundsa a bit dubious to me do you really think potential revolutionaries who had just come back from the trenches would take no for an answer? Scotland lost one in seven of its male population in ww1 I just can't imagine what the feelings at the time must have been like.

    https://sites.scran.ac.uk/redclyde/redclyde/rc025.htm

    An estimated total of 10,000 English troops were sent to Glasgow in the immediate aftermath of the battle of George Square. This was in spite of a full battalion of Scottish soldiers being stationed at Maryhill barracks in Glasgow at the time.

    No Scottish troops were deployed, with the government fearing that fellow Scots, soldiers or otherwise, would go over to the workers' side if a revolutionary situation developed in Glasgow. English troops were transported from England and stationed in Glasgow specifically to combat this possible scenario.
    I was made aware of it by a relative - an uncle- who remembered seeing the tanks and troops as a child.

    It's always been a cause for perplexity that the UK didn't have more armee uprisings it seems the establishment gave ground just enough to stop pushing people over the edge. The Representation of the People Act was passed in 1918.

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    Re: Well, that was an interesting G7

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    Illegal immigration is a problem - accepted. It is one of many problems we face. Many of these problems have solutions that we, as civilised free peoples, cannot use because no matter how good the result might be, we'd have to commit terrible acts to achieve it. So in Europe is it regarded by many as not acceptable to solve our refugee/migrant issue by sinking the boats full of women and kids and leaving them to drown - even though it would solve most of the problem in a few weeks.
    It's a chicken and egg question I believe.

    A big "IF" the west hadn't supplied the means, by and large, and the puppeteering of internal politics in many of the countries involved, the migrants wouldn't have the need to leave their homelands.......where haven't we been involved ?

    Add to that the welcome recieved when arriving, the open armed welcome arriving in Germany being seen worldwide, and the knowledge trickling back home of the ease of getting support in many European countries, all makes the troublesome journey almost worth it.

    My method of stopping the flow would be European cooperation with the countries where they make land, to support the unfortunate migrants in holding camps, until such time they can return.
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    Re: Well, that was an interesting G7

    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    You are responsible for what you do as a human being. he is worse than me is no defence or justification at all. Trump was elected president he is not a dictator you have a system of government with checks built in to curb the power of the executive branch of government. You do nothing you condone it. No one alive today is responsible far what was done in the past but we are for what is done today. It's now an accepted tenet with regard to human rights and one that was established at the nuremberg trials that the defence of following orders is no defence at all - a principle established in large part by the US at nuremburg trials. Nothing is ever that simple (the firebombing of german cities and the deliberate targeting of civilans is often cited as an example of double standards and I'm fairly sure there were occasions when british and allied troops didn't piss about taking prisoners.) but all it would take is one of the republicans to argue that the immigrants are not entitled to protection under human rights legislation and you can almost see the jackboots going on.


    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    That is hardly a heartbreaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    Someone somewhere has probably already argued that because the parents broke the law we should have no sympathy for the children they brought with them and that the parents are responsible for the cages the children find themselves in not those who put them there.
    Sure you'll be the one to bring us that news.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    Cheer up though at least your government wants to improveyour economy ours wants to destroy ours.
    What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? - W. C. Fields

    A woman drove me to drink and I didn’t even have the decency to thank her. - W. C. Fields

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    Re: Well, that was an interesting G7


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    Re: Well, that was an interesting G7

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    Maybe you should do some reading of books. Soundsa a bit dubious to me do you really think potential revolutionaries who had just come back from the trenches would take no for an answer? Scotland lost one in seven of its male population in ww1 I just can't imagine what the feelings at the time must have been like.
    I can't vouch for its truth but that's the story I was told. And a few years or even a year after the war the junior officers were likely to be pretty new (most wartime officers were Hostilities Only) and I can well imagine they were not going to shoot the RSM because he wouldn't open the door - they may or may not have fought in the Great War; he certainly would have. Besides, their pistols wouldn't have got through the door (if at all) without so much noise everyone would be alerted before they got properly armed.


    I didn't make it clear - in the story as I heard it the RSM was IN the Armoury, the other side of a very solid door from the potential rebels.
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