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Thread: Charles Manson - Finally

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    Re: Charles Manson - Finally

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    Ah.

    A demonizer has entered the fray.
    Ugly words
    Really?

    I thought it was someone who referred to another as a devil or demon. Is that not a fair meaning?

    An agent of evil? Someone for whom there is no prospect of redemption?

    You carry these words like evil and devil around like ammunition. And curious cartoons in which I quite often fail to see any relevance at all.

    Are you saying you've not spoken of Charles Manson as irreclaimably evil, a devil or demon, for whom death at the hand of the posse or state is the only acceptable outcome among "civilized folk"?
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    Re: Charles Manson - Finally

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    So I've heard said, especially by Americans. It seems to be their preferred get-out clause. I find it disgusting and thoroughly amoral.

    Perhaps we could use "what would Jesus do" instead.
    Jesus would tell His followers to defend themselves, that's what Jesus would do. You honestly think that we should just roll over and die and let our enemies KILL us? How illogical!

    Jesus told His disciples to buy a sword for protection. That would be like telling them to buy a gun in this day and age:

    Lu 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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    Re: Charles Manson - Finally

    Quote Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx View Post
    Jesus would tell His followers to defend themselves, that's what Jesus would do. You honestly think that we should just roll over and die and let our enemies KILL us? How illogical!

    Jesus told His disciples to buy a sword for protection. That would be like telling them to buy a gun in this day and age:

    Lu 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
    Goodness, you're not one for context are you.

    He's been fulfilling old testament prophesies before the sacrifice, yes? There's another to tick off - "For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.". As in someone go and get a sword, that will let them say I transgressed. People checking the signs for whether I'm Messiah or not will know why I have one. It's absolutely nothing at all to do with defending themselves and if you had the slightest integrity you'd acknowledge it.

    This bit about recognizing the Jewish Messiah because "he was reckoned among the transgressors" (along with requirements like being descended from David) was the first thing would-be False Jewish Messiahs dealt with. They tended to disrupt synagogue meetings and fornicate with Torah scrolls, for example, which everyone would recognize as transgression. I'm not suggesting Jesus was a False Jewish Messiah, I'm suggesting being "reckoned among the transgressors" was an essential qualification for being the real one and he wanted to be the real one, so he deliberately transgressed. By acquiring weapons. And you're offering this as Jesus "Jesus told His disciples to buy a sword for protection"? I thought you claimed to study your bible.
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    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
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    Re: Charles Manson - Finally

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    Really?

    I thought it was someone who referred to another as a devil or demon. Is that not a fair meaning?
    I dunno, could mean a lot of things, cant't find a dictionary definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    An agent of evil? Someone for whom there is no prospect of redemption?
    Not sure what that means.

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    You carry these words like evil and devil around like ammunition.
    Talking about me? There is a place for the word evil but I don't believe I ever used it in the way you describe. As far as devil, there is no place for him in my theology or philosophy and I don't regard him a real.

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    And curious cartoons in which I quite often fail to see any relevance at all.
    Oh well, on occasion even the great Casey strikes one at bat.

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    Are you saying you've not spoken of Charles Manson as irreclaimably evil, a devil or demon,
    Not at all. I will say he was about as evil as any person can get. As far as a demon or devil, that somethings you made up.

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    for whom death at the hand of the posse or state is the only acceptable outcome among "civilized folk"?
    I do believe in justice. One cannot expect to keep something one stole from another.

    Demonizer
    "The judge who always likes the results he reaches is a bad judge.".

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    Re: Charles Manson - Finally

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    I dunno, could mean a lot of things, cant't find a dictionary definition.
    What you do is you look up Demonize, and then it's someone who does that.

    OED: b. To portray (a person or thing) as wicked and threatening, (now) esp. in an inaccurate or misrepresentative way. (Now the usual sense.)

    I think that's what you do with Charles Manson, that's why I used the word.
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    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

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    Re: Charles Manson - Finally

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    What you do is you look up Demonize, and then it's someone who does that.

    OED: b. To portray (a person or thing) as wicked and threatening, (now) esp. in an inaccurate or misrepresentative way. (Now the usual sense.)
    Oh gee, the OED, fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    I think that's what you do with Charles Manson, that's why I used the word.
    Think what you want. The actions of Manson and his followers who actually committed the murders speak for themselves.
    "The judge who always likes the results he reaches is a bad judge.".

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    Re: Charles Manson - Finally

    The actions of your assorted Presidents and their military assets speak for themselves too, except they juggle the law to make their killings "not murder". Obviously Charles Manson murdered. The definition of murder is set by legislators and Charles Manson wasn't a legislator. He was a political activist trying to overthrow the Constitution of the United States. Had he asked my opinion I'd have said he was pressing the wrong buttons and, given what came of his scheme, I'd have been right.
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    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

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    Re: Charles Manson - Finally

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    Think what you want. The actions of Manson and his followers who actually committed the murders speak for themselves.
    I have no doubt that they are. Their motives, on the other hand, seem widely misinterpreted. The motives have been interpreted by others as:
    We have two antagonistic groups in this society, divided (on this particular occasion) by race.

    If we can kill a few on one side and make the other side think it was cross-racial attacks we might generate a mushrooming series of backlash responses leading to the collapse of law and order nationwide.

    Our kind will then step in at a suitable point and rebuild society from the roots up.
    Which has been a pretty standard template for grass-roots revolution worldwide since civilization first graced the Indus valley. I expect Sun Tzu has a chapter on it - Machiavelli certainly did.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  9. #29
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    is IF YOU WANT TO ACCEPT JESUS'S GIFT OF SALVATION, PRAY THIS FROM YOUR HEART:“DEAR LORD JESUS, I BELIEVE YOU DIED AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD FOR MY SINS. PLEASE COME INTO MY HEART AND FORGIVE ME FOR MY SINS, I NOW RECEIVE YOU IN JESUS NAME AMEN.”
     
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    Re: Charles Manson - Finally

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    Goodness, you're not one for context are you.

    He's been fulfilling old testament prophesies before the sacrifice, yes? There's another to tick off - "For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.". As in someone go and get a sword, that will let them say I transgressed. People checking the signs for whether I'm Messiah or not will know why I have one. It's absolutely nothing at all to do with defending themselves and if you had the slightest integrity you'd acknowledge it.

    This bit about recognizing the Jewish Messiah because "he was reckoned among the transgressors" (along with requirements like being descended from David) was the first thing would-be False Jewish Messiahs dealt with. They tended to disrupt synagogue meetings and fornicate with Torah scrolls, for example, which everyone would recognize as transgression. I'm not suggesting Jesus was a False Jewish Messiah, I'm suggesting being "reckoned among the transgressors" was an essential qualification for being the real one and he wanted to be the real one, so he deliberately transgressed. By acquiring weapons. And you're offering this as Jesus "Jesus told His disciples to buy a sword for protection"? I thought you claimed to study your bible.
    That's not the verse I quoted. Read the one I quoted again. Jesus did tell His disciples to buy a sword for protection. Read it again.

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    Re: Charles Manson - Finally

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    Quote Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx View Post
    That's not the verse I quoted. Read the one I quoted again. Jesus did tell His disciples to buy a sword for protection. Read it again.
    Gordon Bennett! The verse you quoted was IN A CONTEXT! You can't take it out of that context and just use it without knowing what it was said for!

    This is the much-famed Bible Literalism, is it?




    eta:

    And no, while we're at it - "for protection" isn't biblical at all. Go and check your quoted verse, there's no sign of it. They're your words, they're not biblical.

    What Luke 22 does say is that buying the swords was because this that is written must yet be accomplished in me: "And he was reckoned among the transgressors". I repunctuate the verse here solely for emphasis on my part, by all means remove the quote marks.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

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