The Debarring of homosexuals From the papacy:

[Derryck]

November 27-2005:

The Debarring Of Homosexuals From The Catholic Church:

If the Roman Catholic Church's new decree, is to debar men and women who profess to be homosexuals from entrance to that institution, so let it be. Trying to change an institution that professes rigid conservatives policies for it's clergy, is like telling Christians that Jesus The Christ, have been found in default of that title.

For decades the Papacy under the former Pontiff-John Paul, has insisted that Homosexual life/lifestyle conflicts with the scriptures decree, that men or women having relations of a sexual nature with the same gender is wrong or evil, and those who indulge in such acts are headed for damnation.

Therefore, I cannot fathom why any rational thinking person/s would want to enter such an environment where he or she is not wanted, or would be scorned or frowned upon.

God did not say anywhere, (if I recall correctly), that all humans must be Catholics, Protestants, Jehovah Witnesses, Moslems, Jews, Hindus, Spiritualists, or Seventh Day Adventists.

So why should any organization purport the view, that homosexuals are violating God's desires for normal human existence?

And why should any Roman Catholic follower or believer, who truly believes in the God of Christians, allow themselves to be treated as though they were the scum of the earth, if they fail to comply with institutional policy or Cannon Laws?

I say if you truly believe in God, and understand who & what we are as his creation, then no institution or church organization can prevent you from receiving his blessings or mercy. Because all humans are imperfect, and have done wrong to others at some time or another.

Therefore, if this God is one who forgives his children, then The Roman Catholic Institution, also needs to be forgiven for their mis-interpretation of God's words and righteousness!

Om Shanti.
Derryck S. Griffith.
Educator & Advocate.

Dont expect Derryk to reply, he just dumps his load and leaves. He hasnt grasped the concept of conversation

[lady cop]

yes, load.

[Galbally]

Erm, since when was the fact that the Catholic Church does not advocate homosexuality become news, circa 1550?

[Ted]

I couldn't care less what te pope or the magesterium say. Perhaps some day they will enter the 21st. cent. Maybe in the year 2500. It only took them about 400 years to exonerate Galileo.

Shalom
Ted

[BabyRider]

Okie dokie....I don't have the interest or the tolerance to get really deep into this topic, but I am curious: Is this actually saying that although the Catholic church believes homosexuality is a sin, they are allowing gay clergy anyway, and that as long as they don't practice homosexuality it's ok and that any tendencies they may have had must have been overcome for a certain number of years to be accepted??? Seriously, someone please tell me that this is not the case and I am misinterpreting what I'm reading. 'Cuz I knew all along that organized religion was made up of and run by some of the worst hypocrites in the world, but this.....THIS is beyond reason.

Originally Posted by BabyRider

Okie dokie....I don't have the interest or the tolerance to get really deep into this topic, but I am curious: Is this actually saying that although the Catholic church believes homosexuality is a sin, they are allowing gay clergy anyway, and that as long as they don't practice homosexuality it's ok and that any tendencies they may have had must have been overcome for a certain number of years to be accepted??? Seriously, someone please tell me that this is not the case and I am misinterpreting what I'm reading. 'Cuz I knew all along that organized religion was made up of and run by some of the worst hypocrites in the world, but this.....THIS is beyond reason.

I think maybe its away of trying to appease all sides, hedge their bets , confuse, and generally dump any responsibility for decision making on to others hoping we dont notice and it goes away. All you achieve by sitting on the fence is splinters. You cant expect the Catholic church to hold any responsibility for such issues when they are busy picking splinters from their arse

Yes, you can own a car...but you cant drive it, untill we can make a decision on whether you can both own it and drive it or neither, lets look in the manual....erm......dont know !! We cant decide, so its best left as an ambiguous riddle for others to make sense of

Sheesh !

[William Ess]

[quote=Bronwen]...............Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practice homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture."QUOTE]

It is interesting to note that the Church does not debar homosexuals per se and presumably an applicant for holy orders who was homosexual but did not practice homosexuality, did not present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support an homosexual culture would be accepted, all other things being equal, for ordination. The RC clergy are nowadays required to be celibate and a homosexual priest would, presumably, find celibacy no easier to maintain than his heterosexual colleagues.
There is however a further dimension to this. The RC church believes in the importance and sanctity of the 'nuclear' family unit and it is difficult to understand how the homosexual pont of view might incline towards this.

[zinkyusa]

Originally Posted by Bronwen

BR, the main reason I have made contributions to this thread is that the opening post was such nonsense that I felt it had to be challenged. Your post, on the other hand, is quite reasonable and your questions are good ones, and I'll try to address each of them directly. Obviously I'm not an official spokesman for the Catholic Church, but this is my interpretation of MODERN Church teaching and, I think, reasonably accurate.

The Catholic Church believes that God intended sexual realtions for married couples and outside that relationship they are immoral. Of course, this belief is hardly unique to Catholicism.

Therefore, the Church believes that God expects homosexuals to adopt a celibate lifestyle. There is no condemnation of homosexuality as an psychological orientation, nor does the Church believe homosexuality to be a 'choice', as some fundamentalist Protestants claim.

Currently, the Western rite of the Catholic Church, which is by far the largest, requires that most of its clergy be celibate, though it occasionally ordains married men, usually clergy from other denominations who convert to Catholicism and wish to remain clergy. The various Eastern rites have always have a married clergy, though they ordain bachelors as well.

The main reason for the preference for a celibate clergy is the example of Christ Himself. Had Christ married, it is very unlikely that the Church would require celibacy of any of its clergy, although there are certainly practical aspects also, such as having more time for one's priestly duties. On the other hand, there is no Church doctrine requiring priestly celibacy, it's purely a regulation that can be changed, and very well might be in the years ahead. Until that happens, every candidate for the Western priesthood, with a very few exceptions as I mentioned, must be willing to live a celibate life, whether heter- or homosexual in orientation.

As far as your closing statements are concerned, you are entitled to your opinion, which is a polite way of saying that I disagree with you. I have to admit, though,
that homosexuals who wish to be active Catholics are at a disadvantage, since heterosexuals who do not wish to be celibate can marry and homosexuals cannot. Even if homosexual marriage were allowed by law, the Church would not recognize it, and again, this viewpoint is hardly unique, being shared with many other Christian denoms and other religions such as Judaism and Islam. I'm not sure if that is hypocrisy or just unfairness, like so many other things in life.

No one really know whether Jesus was married or celibate. From what I can find it was pretty much self imposed as for number of years priests were not celibate:

http://www.futurechurch.org/fpm/history.htm

A Brief History of Celibacy in the
Catholic Church
First Century
Peter, the first pope, and the apostles that Jesus chose were, for the most part, married men. The New Testament implies that women presided at eucharistic meals in the early church.

Second and Third Century
Age of Gnosticism: light and spirit are good, darkness and material things are evil. A person cannot be married and be perfect. However, most priests were married.

Fourth Century
306-Council of Elvira, Spain, decree #43: a priest who sleeps with his wife the night before Mass will lose his job.
325-Council of Nicea: decreed that after ordination a priest could not marry. Proclaimed the Nicene Creed.
352-Council of Laodicea: women are not to be ordained. This suggests that before this time there was ordination of women.
385-Pope Siricius left his wife in order to become pope. Decreed that priests may no longer sleep with their wives.

Fifth Century
401-St. Augustine wrote, “Nothing is so powerful in drawing the spirit of a man downwards as the caresses of a woman.”

Sixth Century
567-2nd Council of Tours: any cleric found in bed with his wife would be excommunicated for a year and reduced to the lay state.
580-Pope Pelagius II: his policy was not to bother married priests as long as they did not hand over church property to wives or children.
590-604-Pope Gregory “the Great” said that all sexual desire is sinful in itself (meaning that sexual desire is intrinsically evil?).

Seventh Century
France: documents show that the majority of priest were married.

Eighth Century
St. Boniface reported to the pope that in Germany almost no bishop or priest was celibate.

Ninth Century
836-Council of Aix-la-Chapelle openly admitted that abortions and infanticide took place in convents and monasteries to cover up activities of uncelibate clerics.
St. Ulrich, a holy bishop, argued from scripture and common sense that the only way to purify the church from the worst excesses of celibacy was to permit priests to marry.

Eleventh Century
1045-Pope Boniface IX dispensed himself from celibacy and resigned in order to marry.
1074-Pope Gregory VII said anyone to be ordained must first pledge celibacy: ‘priests [must] first escape from the clutches of their wives.’
1095-Pope Urban II had priests’ wives sold into slavery, children were abandoned.

Twelfth Century
1123-Pope Calistus II: First Lateran Council decreed that clerical marriages were invalid.
1139-Pope Innocent II: Second Lateran Council confirmed the previous council’s decree.

Fourteenth Century
Bishop Pelagio complains that women are still ordained and hearing confessions.

Fifteenth Century
Transition; 50% of priests are married and accepted by the people.

Sixteenth Century
1545-63-Council of Trent states that celibacy and virginity are superior to marriage.
1517-Martin Luther.
1530-Henry VIII.

Seventeenth Century
Inquisition. Galileo. Newton.

Eighteenth Century
1776-American Declaration of Independence.
1789-French Revolution.

Nineteenth Century
1804-Napoleon.
1882-Darwin.
1847-Marx, Communist Manifesto.
1858-Freud.
1869-First Vatican Council; infallibility of pope.

Twentieth Century
1930-Pope Pius XI: sex can be good and holy.
1951-Pope Pius XII: married Lutheran pastor ordained catholic priest in Germany.
1962-Pope John XXIII: Vatican Council II; vernacular; marriage is equal to virginity.
1966-Pope Paul VI: celibacy dispensations.
1970s-Ludmilla Javorova and several other Czech women ordained to serve needs of women imprisoned by Communists.
1978-Pope John Paul II: puts a freeze on dispensations.
1983-New Canon Law.
1980-Married Anglican/Episcopal pastors are ordained as catholic priests in the U.S.; also in Canada and England in 1994.



Popes who were married
St. Peter, Apostle
St. Felix III 483-492 (2 children)
St. Hormidas 514-523 (1 son)
St. Silverus (Antonia) 536-537
Hadrian II 867-872 (1 daughter)
Clement IV 1265-1268 (2 daughters)
Felix V 1439-1449 (1 son)

[William Ess]

Originally Posted by zinkyusa

No one really know whether Jesus was married or celibate. From what I can find it was pretty much self imposed as for number of years priests were not celibate:

)

I believe celibacy as a requirement for the priesthood is a relatively recent - 12th century - innovation and has more to do with ensuring the the priesthood has the minimum of diversions than it has with scriptural precedent. I think it is reasonably assumed that Jesus was a bachelor if only because no mention is made of his wife in the synoptic gospels. Although nothing is known of the greater part of his life, I think a marriage is improbable if only because any issue resulting would have led to the complication of the Grandson (or, mirabile dictu, Grand-daughter) of God which would have muddied the ecclesiastical waters somewhat.