They choose not to have faith

[Clint]

Nine year old Joey was asked by his mother what he had learned in Sunday school.

“Well, Mom, our teacher told us how God sent Moses behind enemy lines on a rescue mission to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. When he got to the Red Sea, he had his engineers build a pontoon bridge and all the people walked across safely. Then he used his walkie-talkie to radio headquarters for reinforcements. They sent bombers to blow up the bridge and all the Israelites were saved.”

“Now, Joey, is that really what your teacher taught you?” his mother asked.

“Well, no, Mom. But, if I told it the way the teacher did, you’d never believe it!”

These days, if the Red Sea crossing had been captured on VHS, the same doubters would say it was trick photography or elaborate special effects. They doubt because they want to. Not doubting means there is an all powerful God they need to submit to.

[A Karenina]

Clint, I'm going to jump in here and say thank you, from the heart. I'm unable to PM you or email you, so this is my public offering.

There's a lot of truth in what you're saying. People often believe what they want to, ignoring parts that they don't like or don't want to accept.

Using the Moses story, I've always felt that it is entirely possible this happened through some kind of natural disaster...think tsunami pictures. The fact that it happened at the precise moment it was needed is the miracle.

The same with the walls of Jericho. Archaelogists studied the site, and someone reputable (National Geographic?) produced a documentary on it. I'm dredging this up from memory, so it won't be well done.
It seems that Jericho was built on unstable ground. The constant marching of hundreds of men combined with the blowing of the horn (shofar?) was enough to bring the walls down. There is a scientific explanation behind the event, and yet the miracle is NOT the walls coming down. To me, the miracle lies in those men marching endlessly, not sure how it would happen but believing in a promise made to them.

If this is all true, that the miracle lies in faith, not in scientific reasons for events, then it's true that many of us would deny it. It places a burden on us.

Without commenting yet on that burden, is this what you're getting at? Or have I completely missed the mark?

[Clint]

Originally Posted by A Karenina

Clint, I'm going to jump in here and say thank you, from the heart. I'm unable to PM you or email you, so this is my public offering.

There's a lot of truth in what you're saying. People often believe what they want to, ignoring parts that they don't like or don't want to accept.

Using the Moses story, I've always felt that it is entirely possible this happened through some kind of natural disaster...think tsunami pictures. The fact that it happened at the precise moment it was needed is the miracle.

The same with the walls of Jericho. Archaelogists studied the site, and someone reputable (National Geographic?) produced a documentary on it. I'm dredging this up from memory, so it won't be well done.
It seems that Jericho was built on unstable ground. The constant marching of hundreds of men combined with the blowing of the horn (shofar?) was enough to bring the walls down. There is a scientific explanation behind the event, and yet the miracle is NOT the walls coming down. To me, the miracle lies in those men marching endlessly, not sure how it would happen but believing in a promise made to them.

If this is all true, that the miracle lies in faith, not in scientific reasons for events, then it's true that many of us would deny it. It places a burden on us.

Without commenting yet on that burden, is this what you're getting at? Or have I completely missed the mark?

Sorry about the full mail box. I’ve emptied it. I wish I could spend more time here but other things are more pressing. Thank you for your kind words.

I think the miracles like the parting of the Red Sea could be the result of some natural phenomenon. I also believe that God could will it done and it would be done. Either way the events result in lessons and experiences that point to God and strengthen his people. If we accept them in faith, we also accept that we are not on an aimles journey alone.

The sad reality is that so many of us see believing as a burden. Many think that accepting the power and presence of God means they will cease to enjoy life. In our rebellion, we want to be the greatest entity in existence. We don’t want to accept that God’s ways are better than our ways. Many don’t realize that accepting God’s existence means that no matter what happens we are never alone and always loved.

[A Karenina]

Originally Posted by Clint

I think the miracles like the parting of the Red Sea could be the result of some natural phenomenon. I also believe that God could will it done and it would be done. Either way the events result in lessons and experiences that point to God and strengthen his people. If we accept them in faith, we also accept that we are not on an aimless journey alone.

That's what I'm trying to say in a round-about way. God created nature, or harnessed nature - however you see it. Logically, why wouldn't God use his own creations in order to force a specific action? Using natural events doesn't lessen the miracle in my mind. (But then...we know what a scary place my mind really is. LOL)

People can try to disprove the miraculous aspect of certain events by saying here's how it happened (like the walls of Jericho). But proving the "how" has no bearing on the "why" or the "when" or anything else.

Originally Posted by Clint

The sad reality is that so many of us see believing as a burden. Many think that accepting the power and presence of God means they will cease to enjoy life. In our rebellion, we want to be the greatest entity in existence. We don’t want to accept that God’s ways are better than our ways. Many don’t realize that accepting God’s existence means that no matter what happens we are never alone and always loved.

Speaking for myself, I have seen faith as a burden for a long time now. And I haven't wanted it. I'm not sure if it's rebellion in my case or not - it could be. I know that I struggle so hard with forgiveness. I'm hardly the only one, I know, but for the sake of this post, let's make it all about me.

I don't believe I am anything special, no greater or lesser than anyone else. But for whatever reasons, I've had so many awful experiences tied in with religion (as you know). The battle to forgive and keep the faith in spite of it all made me emotionally exhausted. And I quit. I refused the burden, because that's how I saw it - a burden to forgive, a struggle to be try and be good anyway, a ten-ton weight on my soul.

I am at the beginning phases of understanding this differently now. I have judged God by the actions of the people he has created. If they weren't living up to my expectations of what they should be doing, in my infinite wisdom - ha!, then clearly they were destroying God with every nasty thing they do.

It was easier for me to turn my back on the whole thing than to try and come to terms with all of that. Yet, over time and with avoidance, neglect, and denial of my own faith, I'm pretty much back to my own starting place. God does indeed work in mysterious ways.

I wonder if many of us refuse the "burden" for similar reasons. I see posts that aer angry at God/religion and I completely understand that. I ache when I read them. I feel like those people have such a strong belief that anything less than their vision is intolerable...that's the road I have taken.

[Clint]

Originally Posted by A Karenina

I wonder if many of us refuse the "burden" for similar reasons. I see posts that aer angry at God/religion and I completely understand that. I ache when I read them. I feel like those people have such a strong belief that anything less than their vision is intolerable...that's the road I have taken.

I’m sure you are right.
If we don’t forgive, we cannot heal.
If we don’t forgive, we reserve the right to sweet revenge.
If we don’t forgive, we don’t have the right to be forgiven.
If we don’t forgive, we keep the power to decide another’s fate.
If don’t forgive we control our own fate (not good).
Deciding to forgive is a difficult decision.

You sound like someone who is looking forward to freedom, hope and joy in spite of the trouble you have had or might have.

I’m glad I came to the garden today.

[koan]

Jives,

Stories such as this are the reason I love the ForumGarden so much. It sounds like you could fill the boards with inspiring tales. Thank you.

[capt_buzzard]

I believe in Faith of my loved ones and the many friends round me.

[Clint]

Originally Posted by Jives

I learned a couple of powerful things from this experience:

1. There is life after death and you do not cease to exist when you die!
2. God gave me a wake up call, "Life is beautiful, get out there and enjoy every single minute of it!"
3. Do good, live well, be kind, and stop and smell those roses every chance you get. Look closely at the grass, lie on your back and stare at the clouds, roll around on the lawn, cherish your friends, love the people in your life.

4. Have faith, there is a God and he has plan and a pattern to the Universe.

Thank you for your story and lessons. God wants us to walk in his ways because his ways are the ways of joy, hope and peace.

[capt_buzzard]

Originally Posted by Clint

Thank you for your story and lessons. God wants us to walk in his ways because his ways are the ways of joy, hope and peace.

Where is the Peace today?

[Clint]

Originally Posted by capt_buzzard

Where is the Peace today?

I believe peace resides in the perspective of each individual. It has nothing to do with whether or not we are at war as a nation or even world wide. Peace comes from knowing that when it looks like everything is coming down around us, we will still be standing no matter what physical condition we are left in. Peace comes from knowing what our relationship with our creator is and that his love for us covers what we have done and what others have done to us. Peace comes from knowing that it isn’t up to us to forge the way, we only need to follow. Peace comes from discipline in the ways of the One who designed and created us.