What is God Saying to You?

Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr

Totally agree and that's exactly what I was suggesting.

Given the discussion centring round the God of the New Testament compared with the God of the Old testament I'm not sure that you can filter in that way.

God's creation is the universe and everything in it so how can we look around and say "that's good so that it God's work, that is bad so it cannot be"?

I think you have Creation and then you have Man. It's very clear to me that Gods creation is the only thing left that is good in and of itself in existance or in our existance, all of mankind has strayed from our original purpose. The only good we see are those small actions and the outcomes that follow (fruit) that are motivated by pure love of God and acted on in conjucntion with the Holy Spirit.

[theia]

Originally Posted by Jester

Theia,

God is still there in all the disorder of the world and our own situations, in fact thats what we should be looking for is Gods Order, then we can see both our own mistakes and others, we fix our own first then be ready to help others through the same situations we've already been through.

The fact that you recognize there is disorder is proof that God has expressed in your heart there should be a proper order. Thats proof that in the situation God is still near.

Jester, that's both an interesting and inspiring point, one that I hadn't considered before. It's really helpful to me, thank you!

[Bryn Mawr]

Originally Posted by Clint

Agreed, however I am trying to hear from God through his creation in addition to what he gives us in written word. I'm trying to learn from what he has set into motion and what he brings to bear on all that is. I don't think the behavior of man exercising free will gives us a clear view of God. It's the fruit God's work we should observe. I think we can recognize it because it's result is good.

Originally Posted by Clint

It has a lot to do with how we view what God does. If an innocent child dies we would tend to say that isn't of God because it isn't good in our eyes. If however innocent children never died, what would motivate us to care for and protect children?

If God is the creator of all then we have to observe all in order to see his work - we cannot filter what we'll look at through the window of our expectations and hope to see the whole picture.


That would be like a scientist who has a theory and tests the accuracy of that theory by counting only those occasions when he see what he expects to - he'd be laughed out court when he tried to present his results.

[Bryn Mawr]

Originally Posted by Jester

I think you have Creation and then you have Man. It's very clear to me that Gods creation is the only thing left that is good in and of itself in existance or in our existance, all of mankind has strayed from our original purpose. The only good we see are those small actions and the outcomes that follow (fruit) that are motivated by pure love of God and acted on in conjucntion with the Holy Spirit.

I agree that man has strayed from any path of decent behaviour that might have been laid out for him. Mankind has strayed from any form of rational behaviour if you consider anything further than the middle of next week.

Doesn't the highlighted section come under the heading of a self sustaining belief? God creates everything good and if it's good it must have been created by God.

I cannot accept the implication that nothing good can ever be done by a non-Christian.

[Ted]

Bryn Mawr

I can definitely agree on that last point.

What I cannot accept is that all of humanity is totally sinful. First of all we have to consider what the word sin means. I can also agree that all people do make mistakes. That is part of the human condition. Some might call those mistakes sin but one again it hinges on a definition. Mainstream theologians today do not believe in the idea of original sin.

If an innocent child dies it dies because it became ill or it was in an accident, or it had a major birth defect. Now, we may use that death to instill in us more consideration of children but the death is not the fault of God.

Shalom
Ted

[koan]

God reinforces on a daily basis that "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and that it applies to each individual.

Ever try to change someone?

Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr

If God is the creator of all then we have to observe all in order to see his work - we cannot filter what we'll look at through the window of our expectations and hope to see the whole picture.


That would be like a scientist who has a theory and tests the accuracy of that theory by counting only those occasions when he see what he expects to - he'd be laughed out court when he tried to present his results.

No, it is impossible to observe all; our capabilities are limited so it is revealed to us as we are capable of handling the depth and intricacies of Gods creation. Its like a small boy trying to carry a huge suit case, struggling as he may he cannot lift it, his father comes along side and takes up just what the child cannot carry, the child continues to struggle and he helps in the process, and the suit case is now moving towards its destination.

Maybe that’s what you’re saying. But, we do not have to observe it all, we can see a glimpse of it, not even understand it and it points to a wisdom and depth beyond our capabilities. Then just like the help with the suitcase, God reveals an analogy that makes perfect sense to us using creation as the basis of His order. In fact I think the majority of the time God wants us to leave the big picture to him and let us follow just his plan for us in the greater scheme of the big picture.

Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr

I agree that man has strayed from any path of decent behaviour that might have been laid out for him. Mankind has strayed from any form of rational behaviour if you consider anything further than the middle of next week.

Doesn't the highlighted section come under the heading of a self sustaining belief? God creates everything good and if it's good it must have been created by God.

I cannot accept the implication that nothing good can ever be done by a non-Christian.

I agree with you in some ways here. God is good and all he creates is good, that is true, God created man and man strayed. Is man capable of doing good again?, yes absolutely he can. Many good upright moral men that I know do good all the time, they are model citizens and obey all laws and are truthful men. Inside our definition of good they certainly do it. But is it pure good? Does what thy do have the clear motivation of selflessness? Were they motivated out of love to do all the good they do, or do they do good because there are negative outcomes in the world for doing bad? Sorry, I should have qualified my definition of good.

Doing true good comes from with in, not from without. I don’t personally believe that man without God is capable of the correct motivation for doing good, making it pure good.

As to the self sustaining comment, God is much more than good, good is one of his attributes, but he is All Sovereign, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and so much more that he cannot be compared to anything known to man, nor do I expect a comparison to anything that is not known yet. God does good because he is all those other things and good as well.

Originally Posted by Ted

Bryn Mawr

I can definitely agree on that last point.

What I cannot accept is that all of humanity is totally sinful. First of all we have to consider what the word sin means. I can also agree that all people do make mistakes. That is part of the human condition. Some might call those mistakes sin but one again it hinges on a definition. Mainstream theologians today do not believe in the idea of original sin.

If an innocent child dies it dies because it became ill or it was in an accident, or it had a major birth defect. Now, we may use that death to instill in us more consideration of children but the death is not the fault of God.

Shalom
Ted

Sin: to disagree with God, to transgress the Law. Many mainline theologians today agree that mankind is under original sin, just not your scholars. By mistakes do you mean I went to the store and got toilet paper when my wife said get paper towels? Or do you mean I decided to rape a woman instead of give her a lift to the store?

By original sin I am referring to the state of constant disobedience to the command of God, our propensity to be rebellious.

Are you affirming that you do not have a propensity to do wrong?

[Ted]

Two problems arise here.

If we are truly free and able to make our own decisions and if as Jesus says we shall know the truth and it shall make us free I fail to see how, if God has a plan and is forcing the world to move in that direction, we indeed have any freedom. It is like the freedom a victim in a bank robbery has; you are free but either do as you are told or I will shoot you.

The second problem arises with wars and war crimes; the invasion of Canaan, the millions killed in WWI, Stalin's mass murders as well as Hitler's genocide or the genocide in the Balkans. We see innocent millions being murdered. If God is omnipotent why did he not intervene?

Today in Africa innocent children die every moment for want of food and medications that the west has in abundance beyond their needs. Where is the so called Christian west when it comes to the needs of the third world? Where is the Christian west when it comes to poverty and homelessness within its own territory?

Shalom
Ted