What is God Saying to You?

[Bryn Mawr]

Originally Posted by Jester

No, it is impossible to observe all; our capabilities are limited so it is revealed to us as we are capable of handling the depth and intricacies of Gods creation. Its like a small boy trying to carry a huge suit case, struggling as he may he cannot lift it, his father comes along side and takes up just what the child cannot carry, the child continues to struggle and he helps in the process, and the suit case is now moving towards its destination.

Maybe that’s what you’re saying. But, we do not have to observe it all, we can see a glimpse of it, not even understand it and it points to a wisdom and depth beyond our capabilities. Then just like the help with the suitcase, God reveals an analogy that makes perfect sense to us using creation as the basis of His order. In fact I think the majority of the time God wants us to leave the big picture to him and let us follow just his plan for us in the greater scheme of the big picture.

It was the idea of deliberately limiting what you look for / at that I was objecting to.

True, we are limited and cannot see everything at once but we can strive to see as much as possible - look at the sky and the wide open spaces, not down at your feet :-)

[Bryn Mawr]

Originally Posted by Jester

I agree with you in some ways here. God is good and all he creates is good, that is true, God created man and man strayed. Is man capable of doing good again?, yes absolutely he can. Many good upright moral men that I know do good all the time, they are model citizens and obey all laws and are truthful men. Inside our definition of good they certainly do it. But is it pure good? Does what thy do have the clear motivation of selflessness? Were they motivated out of love to do all the good they do, or do they do good because there are negative outcomes in the world for doing bad? Sorry, I should have qualified my definition of good.

Doing true good comes from with in, not from without. I don’t personally believe that man without God is capable of the correct motivation for doing good, making it pure good.

As to the self sustaining comment, God is much more than good, good is one of his attributes, but he is All Sovereign, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and so much more that he cannot be compared to anything known to man, nor do I expect a comparison to anything that is not known yet. God does good because he is all those other things and good as well.

If a man performs a good action, knowing it to be a good action and does it rather than doing a bad act that he believes he can get away with, is it any less good because it is for his own satisfaction rather than prompted by God?

I agree, if a person does a good act for the sole purpose of gaining benefit then it is a lesser act than if he does it for Philanthropic reasons but it sounds like you are trying to define good as that which comes from God.

Are you restricting your definition of God in the highlighted section to the Christian God?

If so then I cannot in any way accept your stance.

[Ted]

jester

It depends on what you mean by mainline. Generally mainline theologians refers to highly trained and highly intelligent men and women of the centre and left. So I will restate that mainline theologians generally do not accept original sin. I'm not talking about extremists.

As far as your rape story goes that is of course an extreme case. Most folks do not engage in such behaviour. Sin is separation from God.

As far as your propensity to do wrong goes it is only one side of the coin. There are those who also have a propensity to do the right thing and for the right motivation. Man is not born in sin. That was Augustine's major hang up with sexuality. Man is born with the possibility of going either way.

The constant talk of sin and evil and everyone being a sinner misses the whole point of the Christian faith. It is to dwell on one small part of the human condition and ignore the rest.

Matt 25 presents a clear picture of what God expects of us. Inasmuch as you did it to the least of these you did it to me. He accepts that if one does something for the right motivation, one has done it to Him and thus what was expected of him. There are no provisos here about being saved or saying the name Jesus. They do not exist and to suggest that they are implied, is to add to the scriptures what is not there in either the Greek or the English.

Micah 6:8 tells us that God requires that we do justice, love kindness (be compassionate) and walk humbly with "your God". Matt 22 tells us that the greatest commandment is love of God and neighbour. 1 Cor. 13:13 tells us again that love is the greatest. 1 John 4:8 tells us "Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God;everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:16 "God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them.

The love we are speaking of is not any wishy washy mushy love such as "fileo" or "eros" though those are important but "agape" which means unconditional love. Many in all the great faiths of the world display this love, not just Christians. Such love moves people to do the right thing for the right reason.

So I leave the judging and the punishment to God. That is his and his alone.

And as one great church father said "Evangelize, yes but with words only if necessary". In other words walk the talk and forget the talk for the most part. Actions speak louder then words. Meet people's needs and do it with unconditional love. That is what we are called to do.

Shalom
Ted

[Ted]

For some the glass is half empty. For others it is half full.

Shalom
Ted

[theia]

Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr

If a man performs a good action, knowing it to be a good action and does it rather than doing a bad act that he believes he can get away with, is it any less good because it is for his own satisfaction rather than prompted by God?

I agree, if a person does a good act for the sole purpose of gaining benefit then it is a lesser act than if he does it for Philanthropic reasons but it sounds like you are trying to define good as that which comes from God.

Are you restricting your definition of God in the highlighted section to the Christian God?

If so then I cannot in any way accept your stance.

This has raised a topic that I've been struggling with for a while. You see, I view every action as gaining benefit for the self in some way and so I don't know how to interpret "philanthropic reasons." Would this be an action carried out without thought? And when I say that, I don't mean a "thoughtless" action in the way that we would generally use the word, but an action carried out, well, spontaneously.

[Ted]

theia

Think about altruism that might help. Why does one man sacrifice his life for another?

Shalom
Ted

[koan]

The times that I have listened to God, I couldn't put into words what was said. I tried to find a way to retain the meaning of what was said but as soon as I tried to capture it, it wouldn't be contained.

The words of God, imo, can not be expressed in the limited vocabulary of humankind.

[Ted]

koan

Excellent. What I've believed for a long time.

Shalom
Ted

[theia]

Originally Posted by Ted

theia

Think about altruism that might help. Why does one man sacrifice his life for another?

Shalom
Ted

I actually don't know the answer to that, Ted, and would appreciate hearing what you think.

[Bryn Mawr]

Originally Posted by theia

This has raised a topic that I've been struggling with for a while. You see, I view every action as gaining benefit for the self in some way and so I don't know how to interpret "philanthropic reasons." Would this be an action carried out without thought? And when I say that, I don't mean a "thoughtless" action in the way that we would generally use the word, but an action carried out, well, spontaneously.

Not spontaneous, acts carried out for the benefit of the recipient with no thought of gaining benefit for the giver - indeed, usually at material cost to the giver.

It could be seen as an attempt to gain self esteem or self satisfaction but would you see that as the cause of the action?