Ted and Jester thread....

[quote=Ted;734241]jester

Do you know any of these scholars personally? I know several and they are fine Christians in the true sense of the word. These are men who have studied and done their best to understand both the past and the present. They too have much to impart. We are clearly warned not to lean on our own understanding. If we do not learn how the Bible was written and the style in which it was written as well as the purpose of the writer and the audience we cannot hope to come close to an understanding. An example is the word faith. Many seem to think it means correct belief but the biblical meaning is expressed by our word trust. Of course scholarly people and clergy are real men and women. They have wisdom to offer.

Then why are they so wrong on thier interpretation of scripture?

Christ is known as the suffering servant. If he is part of the Godhead then God suffers as does the Holy Spirit. You are equating the word justice with retributive justice. The word justice in the Bible originally meant distributive justice. The idea of retributive justice arose out of the martyrs. Christians began to think that it was not just to martyr someone. If the martyred cannot have justice here he will have it in the future. Yet, we are told that God is not willing that any should perish. Jesus also told us to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us.

I'm not sure of your point here? Christ truly suffered, as a man, as God I should suspect he is incapable of that but I truly have not thought that through so I cannot say for sure, call it a gut reaction for now.

Justice is a perfect judgement or justification of some action that equals out full justice, I agree that soemtimes it is retibutive and sometimes it is distributive, it depends on the context and where it is recorded. Either way though, God does it perfectly where man typically cannot without Gods intervention. Suffering isnt at all rewarded in this present time but is surely rewarded when God sees fit, martyr or not, the suffering will be rewarded.

You are correct there are others who have not helped. However, it must begin somewhere. Our illustrious prime minister takes the attitude if the Chinese or the Americans can pollute so can we. Not a very bright stand. If we know better we should be leading the way. We are called to lead.

What a nation does is different than what a minority group can accomplish inside tha nation. We can't even stop the number one killer of all americans, abortion. The whole world is turned upside down. We focus on flu shots to stop a falsely estimated 36,000 death a year and do nothing while we destroy over a million babies a year.

I have no problem saying we are judged corporately as well as individually. I still to not believe that God causes innocent folks to suffer in that judgment. If that is the case then God is not just.

I still dont have a good answer for you. I dont understand it. Other than to reackonthat God gives every person the opportunity. I know His Spirit spoke to mine as a 5 year old child and I began my journey, I believe that if I should have died prior to that recognition of Him I'd have been brought to a point of salvation. Maybe it is that God allowed a child to pass on to the next revealing and death doesnt mean the same to Him as it does to us. I have seen many people die and I have seen many suffer before they did, it is truely a mystery to me. I keep my faith so that I can move forward not understanding and I trust God that He meets out justice perfectly even though I do not understand it fully.

Actually I think we are coming to understand each other. We don't always agree but that is life. Paul didn't agree with James at one time either but they managed to live with disagreements.

I think if we sat down over the bible and we leafed through it we hold many of the same concepts but not the same trail to define them, I hold a stricter interpetation, you a looser one. I do not intend to insult you, but I fear it comes across that way at times.

Even though I get frustrated chatting with you, I am still learning things and thats the whole point of life.

[Ted]

jester

"Then why are they so wrong in their interpretation of scripture?"

That is an opinion. You think they are wrong because you disagree with them. That does not make that opinion correct or incorrect. It is simply your opinion.

With some 22 000 Christian denominations around the world we have some 22 000+ different interpretations of all or parts of the scriptures. Some 22 000+ who each claim there interpretation is the absolute and correct one. I add the "+" sign because even within each denomination there will be differences of opinion and interpretation among congregants and clergy. For instance within even the Anglican Church there are some who think one way and others who think differently.

Regarding God suffering. If one is a Trinitarian and believes in the Godhead then one of them cannot suffer without all suffering. To separate Jesus out and say that he suffers but God does not does not fit the logic of Jesus being God incarnate. If, in fact, Jesus suffers than God must suffer.

Shalom
Ted

Originally Posted by Ted

jester

"Then why are they so wrong in their interpretation of scripture?"

That is an opinion. You think they are wrong because you disagree with them. That does not make that opinion correct or incorrect. It is simply your opinion.

With some 22 000 Christian denominations around the world we have some 22 000+ different interpretations of all or parts of the scriptures. Some 22 000+ who each claim there interpretation is the absolute and correct one. I add the "+" sign because even within each denomination there will be differences of opinion and interpretation among congregants and clergy. For instance within even the Anglican Church there are some who think one way and others who think differently.

Regarding God suffering. If one is a Trinitarian and believes in the Godhead then one of them cannot suffer without all suffering. To separate Jesus out and say that he suffers but God does not does not fit the logic of Jesus being God incarnate. If, in fact, Jesus suffers than God must suffer.

Shalom
Ted

Sorry Ted I should have put a laguhing guy next to my first line. I meant it as a joke.

Ted, generally speaking and I hate to sterotype but I must in this area. I am not going to believe the scholars you read and quote often, they do not hold any of the same thoughts about God as I read in the bible. They are too busy trying to be so all inclusive that they do not differentiate doctrines that are false.

As I read I see that Jesus suffered, indeed he did, he suffered the full measure of humanity in passion. I see that God at some moment forsook him as he died on the cross. What I have not been able to determine is that if it is Jesus the man that cries out my God My God why has thou forsaken me? or if it is Jesus the Christ, the son of God incarnate that says that?

Is there another time when Jesus was suffering? Certainly his physical body suffered while he was tempted in the desert.

It is an interesting question.

[Ted]

jester

The whole point of dogma and doctrine is that it is something to believe in. The word faith does not mean that., The word faith means "trust". We are asked to have faith in, which means to trust. Of the 22 000+ interpretations, who is correct?

Dogma and doctrine as far as I can see are purely man made and unimportant. What is important is that we live in a developing, transforming relationship with the God as manifested in Jesus of Nazareth. Our salvation depends on a relational activity and not a correct belief. If it depends on correct belief we are in deep trouble with some 22 000+ such interpretations, dogmas and doctrines.

Shalom
Ted

Originally Posted by Ted

jester

The whole point of dogma and doctrine is that it is something to believe in. The word faith does not mean that., The word faith means "trust". We are asked to have faith in, which means to trust. Of the 22 000+ interpretations, who is correct?

Dogma and doctrine as far as I can see are purely man made and unimportant. What is important is that we live in a developing, transforming relationship with the God as manifested in Jesus of Nazareth. Our salvation depends on a relational activity and not a correct belief. If it depends on correct belief we are in deep trouble with some 22 000+ such interpretations, dogmas and doctrines.

Shalom
Ted

I agree, a relationship with God is most important, but without a clear understanding of the scriptures and right interpretation we have a misguided attempt at the relationship... and it is more difficult to know and understand God.

If I fail to understand the doctrine of my lawnmower (the directions) and the dogma of my fatherrs warnings to be careful with powertools in general, I could misuse it and cut my foot off.

Originally Posted by Ted

jester

The whole point of dogma and doctrine is that it is something to believe in. The word faith does not mean that., The word faith means "trust". We are asked to have faith in, which means to trust. Of the 22 000+ interpretations, who is correct?

Dogma and doctrine as far as I can see are purely man made and unimportant. What is important is that we live in a developing, transforming relationship with the God as manifested in Jesus of Nazareth. Our salvation depends on a relational activity and not a correct belief. If it depends on correct belief we are in deep trouble with some 22 000+ such interpretations, dogmas and doctrines.

Shalom
Ted

I agree, a relationship with God is most important, but without a clear understanding of the scriptures and right interpretation we have a misguided attempt at the relationship... and it is more difficult to know and understand God.

If I fail to understand the doctrine of my lawnmower (the directions) and the dogma of my fathers warnings to be careful with powertools in general, I could misuse it and cut my foot off.

[Ted]

jester

Are you not then saying that you alone of 22 000+ other Christians are the only one that is correct?

Shalom
Ted

Originally Posted by Ted

jester

Are you not then saying that you alone of 22 000+ other Christians are the only one that is correct?

Shalom
Ted

Oh no not at all, but I do know enough right to recognize wrong when I see it.

Just like a US treasury agent, trained with real bills till I can recognize when one is counterfit.

[Ted]

jester

That is of course your opinion and one to which you are entitled. I guess on that one we will have to disagree. But that is ok with me.

Shalom
Ted

Ted, I am often confused about which parts of the bible you accept as truth and which parts you reject outright because of so called 'inconsistancies' in interpretation or manuscripts. I was wondering if you could 'highlight or bold' the books of the bible from this list below that you believe are not historically accurate, or contain myth, or fairytails?

Thanks!


Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Samuel
2 Samuel
1 Kings
2 Kings
1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles
Ezra
Nehemiah
Esther
Job
Psalm
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Solomon
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi
New Testament
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews
James
1 Peter
2 Peter
1 John
2 John
3 John
Jude
Revelation