Ted and Jester thread....

Ted, We constantly disagree and often I feel bad not answering you back and sometimes I do not answer back becasue it changes the thread and we end up arguing in the middle of someones thread... so Im reposting my reply to you here:

jester

I will address "mistake" first. If a young child decides to tell a lie I would call that a mistake. I do not believe for one moment that God is too concerned about that. The same goes for someone who fails to pay their parking fine or their speeding fine.

As for human nature, I guess we will have to disagree. I most certainly do not accept that a 4 month old child is a sinner. Nor is he loaded with original sin. In my opinion that is pure nonsense.

I agree here on all points. Until a child reaches an age of reckoning he is not fully responsible for his actions, however at the moment he is faced with the apparent dichotemy between good and evil and God reveals himself to him then he is. original sin is a propensity toward ungodliness. You and I dont agree on that subject fine, we can disagree.

I will agree with you that we must come to understand ourselves. Absolutely. I have no problem with that at all. However, the constant referral to sin and death etc is to ignore 90% of the gospel of Jesus Christ; the Good News of the Kingdom.

If we go to Matt 25, I would agree that he separates the sheep from the goats. However, a careful reading shows that the goats who are condemned are those who "Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." Matt 25:45. Those who are welcomed into the kingdom are the sheep who "Truly I tell you just as you did it to the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me."

These verses say absolutely nothing about believers, non-believers or Christians. To put that in is to add to the scriptures. Of course there is no literal hell. Hell is separation from God. The whole idea of a lake of fire and burning without being consumed and thus suffering eternally is pure myth.

Full disagreement here. But if you can pick and choose in the same context what is and isnt scritpure you have a huge problem with interpretaion, and you widely inconsitant in a hermanutical interpetation and therefore can be way off base in your application as you are here.

As far as it being "good works" goes it has absolutely nothing to do with good works but with motivation as per Acts 10:31 ""but in every nation anyone who fears (reveres) him and does what is right is acceptable to him." Even the Muslims revere God. They may call him Allah but it is the one God. "Hear O Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is one." Middle eastern Christians often refer to God as Allah. (Dr. Farooq Ghasi). We are clearly told that God judges the heart. Neither you nor I can do that.

Cough and sputter, no appolgies and I cannot accept that, at all in any way. The muslum faith in its intirety is myth, muhammed was a liar and false teacher and thief of the scriptures and chief among the wolves in sheeps clothing.

"without knowing God one is not capable . . ." Who are we to judge who does and does not know God. All of the world's great faiths are ultimately worshiping the one and only God. How do they know what is right and what is wrong. We have been told that God has written his laws in our hearts.

You are so right about the difference between judging and discernment. But it is a very fine line and one that is easily crossed. If one looks at an individual and says he does not know Jesus he is condemned is not discernment it is judging. God alone knows who is condemned. I would not dare to make such a judgment. That is God's role alone.

We will have to disagree on this one as usual.

As far as telling whether one has the right motives or not I'm afraid that I do not have the gift to judge a person's motives unless one is openly a criminal or out for his own gain. As far as listening to someone preach goes as I have said talk is cheap. If they see by ones life and actions that one has a different and positive way of living they will ask and then are open to listening. If not then they will not listen and make it part of their life. If I go and speak to people in a different culture and language about things they do not understand and cannot understand then I have not done my job. If they see by my life and actions they too might decide to follow.

Is that your way of saying you can discern somethings but not others?


Let me pull this quote out of the above quote for special emphasis:

If I go and speak to people in a different culture and language about things they do not understand and cannot understand then I have not done my job. If they see by my life and actions they too might decide to follow

Can you not speak spiritually from one to another? Does not God prepare the way and the heart of others, so that with words (and deed to) they see and understand that you point Gods way? I agree that right actions need to acompany the truthful word of a preacher, but its done in unison with the expression of your spirit as well, anything else is merely a waste of time and energy.

jester

Where is the freedom in "either do as I say or you gonna burn buster". That is not freedom that is coercion. I would agree that our decisions affect some of those around us. That is perfectly natural. It seems to me that God's plan is not so detailed. He wants what is best for man. "He is not willing that any should perish." As far as ancient prophesy goes it was about the time of the prophets and not about some distant time in the future. Anderson, "Understanding the Old Testament"; Borg, "Reading the Bible Again For the First Time"; Bible translator J. B. Phillips in commentary pages in his translation of the New Testament. The Character of God is well summed up in Matt 22:34ff and Micah 6:8 and Matt. 25:31ff. That is the character of God as far as we humans can grasp the essentially unknowable.

Its not coersion, God sets out his love for us ten fold over the warnings with negative outcome, part of his charcter is that he does not go back on his word, what he has declared he has declared, dont waste your time with your commentators, rewite it in your own words I wont bother to look them up, I don't listen to scholars I lsiten to real men that live the life, such as yourself, ones that I know and can speak to, not ones who write a book and make statements.

When it comes to war and atrocities there is a point of view that does explain it. If we turn to Paul's second letter to the Corinthians 12:9 we read "Christ's power is made perfect in weakness." In 2 Cor12:10 we read "I am content with weakness, for when I am weak, then I am strong." and in 2 Cor 13:4 "Christ was crucified in weakness." Because of God's love for his creation being so strong it has qualified strength. He has given us free will and to interfere is to take away that free will. Thus when Deitrich Bonhoeffer was suffering at the end of the Nazi rope 3 days before liberation God was there suffering with him and giving him the strength to go on. God has chosen his love over his strength. It is called agape.

I cannot necessarily agree with you here either, I think there is balance in perfect love towards us, but not at the expense of Gods Justice, every part of God is met out in perfection towards us. Paul is emphasizing Grace on that I agree with you.

You asked "where is the rest of the world?" We in the west who are supposedly Christian are called to serve the impoverished and those suffering injustice. The western world uses some 80% to 90% of the world's resources. The western world controls the vast majority of the world's wealth. The western world lives quite high. We have more than enough food. We have more than enough money. We have more than enough resources to assist the third world. Our lack of actions speaks louder than do our wonderful religious words. We as a culture are not doing what we are called to do and yet we have the gall to call ourselves Christians. What retired CEO is worth a pension of 50 million dollars a year. What person needs millions a year to enjoy living. As a western society we rape the world and wallow in our wealth. And at the same time we are aiding in the total destruction of the human race.

Yep pretty much, no disagreement there. But dont poke the stick solely at us, its a big big world and many other coudl havehelped to and did not.

In short, we as Christians fail to follow in the footsteps of our Lord. I don't mean you personally or anyone else including myself but corporately we fail miserably. Because other Christian areas of the world would appear not to does nothing to exonerate us.

Agreed, we deserve to be judged by God corporatly as well as individually for our corporate and individual actions, or lack of action.

jester

I have nothing but admiration for you and your work with the UN. You served the cause of peace in one way or another. Blessings for that.

I do thank you for that, but I hate the UN with a passion, they are the worst orginization in the history of the world in terms of corruption and hipocracy, worse than any of the malitias I fought against in a dozen or more places.

I cannot, however, believe that some little innocent child was suffering probably unto death because these people rejected God. They were suffering because of human greed among a small minority. Where were we, corporatively?

Liek it or not you just got done saying above that we are judged corporatly as nations for our actions, how do you now say not so? Our actions is visited on our children. If I choose to commit a crime that sends me to the electric chair my children grow up fatherless.

Why do I have to watch a commercial, on TV, presented by the Canadian Leprosy mission. They plead for money to buy some antibiotics for the children. Meanwhile our drug companies continue to make obscene profits. Our countries continue to build up arms. It has been estimated that 5% of the world's arms money would feed all of the starving children in the world. This, of course, pertains to all nations and not just a few.

It may sound a little crass but much money is spent on trying to save their souls while they are starving to death. That is a sin. That is an atrocity.

I cant disagree with you here at all, well said.

[Ted]

jester

LOL. Great idea.

Communication in spite of disagreement. No one could ask for anything better.

How have I been inconsistent? Yes I pick and choose as do you. i.e. homosexuality is evil or sinful on the basis of Leviticus but eating shellfish or pork is OK. The Bible is a culturally and era created book. It must be reinterpreted in light of modern knowledge and human experience over the years. i.e. we now know that illness is usually caused by pathogens or biological errors such as in epilepsy. It is not as a result of demon possession. We now understand better the nature of scriptural writing as well as the history of the Bible. We have the documents.

BTW There are many clergy and biblical scholars as well as theologians from whom I have been learning. I am not alone.

Your comments on Muhammad are simply wrong. A reading of Islamic history would clear that up. Islam is based on the same tenets as Judaism and Christianity as well as Hinduism and Buddhism etc.; justice and compassion. We cannot blame the extremists for what is happening today. We have them in Christianity as well; Robertson, Phelps etc. "The Great Transformation" by Karen Armstrong is an excellent book.

You don't like my interpretation of Matt 25 but a close and unbiased reading will bear it out. It is also the interpretation of hundreds of clergy and scholarly people. Now you may not think much of scholarship but without it the Bible as we know it today would not exist.

Waiting upon the Holy Spirit will help us in interpretation and discernment. This does not rule out other great Christian writers and thinkers. They have also been guided in what they think. Discernment is fine but anyone who thinks they have it exactly and that includes myself would be living in a delusion. We do not always know that we do not know.

Concerning the last comment it is known that the Japanese do not understand the Christian story. It is foreign to their culture and their way of thinking. Does God prepare the way? I would say yes but in the sense of my or your preparation to meet the cultural situation understanding that we may have to present our case in different ways. Thus we have the "Huron Christmas Carol".

This rather fits in I think. If we follow the line that God opens the eyes of folks to see then we have a segment of society that God has blinded so that they cannot see. This hardly fits in with the unconditional love of God--agape. Predestination says either you are or you are not thus we see again the end of free will.

Shalom
Ted

Originally Posted by Ted

jester

LOL. Great idea.

Communication in spite of disagreement. No one could ask for anything better.

How have I been inconsistent? Yes I pick and choose as do you. i.e. homosexuality is evil or sinful on the basis of Leviticus but eating shellfish or pork is OK. The Bible is a culturally and era created book. It must be reinterpreted in light of modern knowledge and human experience over the years. i.e. we now know that illness is usually caused by pathogens or biological errors such as in epilepsy. It is not as a result of demon possession. We now understand better the nature of scriptural writing as well as the history of the Bible. We have the documents.

BTW There are many clergy and biblical scholars as well as theologians from whom I have been learning. I am not alone.

Your comments on Muhammad are simply wrong. A reading of Islamic history would clear that up. Islam is based on the same tenets as Judaism and Christianity as well as Hinduism and Buddhism etc.; justice and compassion. We cannot blame the extremists for what is happening today. We have them in Christianity as well; Robertson, Phelps etc. "The Great Transformation" by Karen Armstrong is an excellent book.

You don't like my interpretation of Matt 25 but a close and unbiased reading will bear it out. It is also the interpretation of hundreds of clergy and scholarly people. Now you may not think much of scholarship but without it the Bible as we know it today would not exist.

Waiting upon the Holy Spirit will help us in interpretation and discernment. This does not rule out other great Christian writers and thinkers. They have also been guided in what they think. Discernment is fine but anyone who thinks they have it exactly and that includes myself would be living in a delusion. We do not always know that we do not know.

Concerning the last comment it is known that the Japanese do not understand the Christian story. It is foreign to their culture and their way of thinking. Does God prepare the way? I would say yes but in the sense of my or your preparation to meet the cultural situation understanding that we may have to present our case in different ways. Thus we have the "Huron Christmas Carol".

This rather fits in I think. If we follow the line that God opens the eyes of folks to see then we have a segment of society that God has blinded so that they cannot see. This hardly fits in with the unconditional love of God--agape. Predestination says either you are or you are not thus we see again the end of free will.

Shalom
Ted

Wow, Im flabergasted that you'd make this statement:

Islam is based on the same tenets as Judaism and Christianity as well as Hinduism and Buddhism etc.; justice and compassion.

I do blame the extremeists for the action they take however Islam is not anything like Judiasm or Christianity.. and muhammed was a maruading filthy pig, i'd even call him a bastard, he was evil incarnate and I have no doubt was motivated by greed and hate and selfishness and to take from those what he wanted even klilling and murdering inncoent people on his climb up over the well to do and the innocent of his time. To pattern a religion after that man is to pattern a government often Adolf Hitler, and a hundred times worse, his very name personifies hate and terrible injustice and the Islamic world from him on have been nothing but takers and destroyers. Islam is a false religion and alie and a distortion of Gods name to include his charcater in the one they call allah. (lower case initial letter used on purpose).

Islam is a 'religion' (I use that term under protest) of terror and not the religion of peace as it claims.

And I realize most here wont agree with me and Im sure I'll get brought up as hate speech but I really dont give a dang, I call things as I see them and thats that.

I will work on the rest of this post when I return from my next job, sorry to side track it a bit.

[Ted]

jester

Do you know any of these scholars personally? I know several and they are fine Christians in the true sense of the word. These are men who have studied and done their best to understand both the past and the present. They too have much to impart. We are clearly warned not to lean on our own understanding. If we do not learn how the Bible was written and the style in which it was written as well as the purpose of the writer and the audience we cannot hope to come close to an understanding. An example is the word faith. Many seem to think it means correct belief but the biblical meaning is expressed by our word trust. Of course scholarly people and clergy are real men and women. They have wisdom to offer.

Christ is known as the suffering servant. If he is part of the Godhead then God suffers as does the Holy Spirit. You are equating the word justice with retributive justice. The word justice in the Bible originally meant distributive justice. The idea of retributive justice arose out of the martyrs. Christians began to think that it was not just to martyr someone. If the martyred cannot have justice here he will have it in the future. Yet, we are told that God is not willing that any should perish. Jesus also told us to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us.

You are correct there are others who have not helped. However, it must begin somewhere. Our illustrious prime minister takes the attitude if the Chinese or the Americans can pollute so can we. Not a very bright stand. If we know better we should be leading the way. We are called to lead.

I have no problem saying we are judged corporately as well as individually. I still to not believe that God causes innocent folks to suffer in that judgment. If that is the case then God is not just.

Actually I think we are coming to understand each other. We don't always agree but that is life. Paul didn't agree with James at one time either but they managed to live with disagreements.

Shalom
Ted

[nvalleyvee]

I truley do not believe we were meant to be judged by a higher power. We are ever judged by our own inner self. This is what makes us - us. Good or bad by our societal judges. Some of us have gone terribly wrong in our inner self and it is that person that becomes the person in absolute need to be separated. IT HAPPENS.

[jimbo]

i dont want to take sides here

as there is no one wrong in my opinion


but i would like to thank ted for his , logical way of talking about god he does not need to ram every point down every ones throat and it is because of ted that my mind was opened to there being a god and to my finding god


so ted thanks



god does move in mysterious ways indeed

Ted and Jester are both forceful individuals who believe their interpretation is correct. Each has inspired others with the passion of their beliefs and how they live their life as a result.

As I believe God speaks to each of us in the best way that will call us to Him, might we not agree there is a place for both types of enlightenment no matter how much we disagree on the approach?

Originally Posted by jimbo

i dont want to take sides here

as there is no one wrong in my opinion


but i would like to thank ted for his , logical way of talking about god he does not need to ram every point down every ones throat and it is because of ted that my mind was opened to there being a god and to my finding god


so ted thanks



god does move in mysterious ways indeed

Jimbo if ya know God better than you did before I'm all for it, don't really care why or who directed you!, Im just glad you are part of it all!

[koan]

Originally Posted by Jester

I do blame the extremeists for the action they take however Islam is not anything like Judiasm or Christianity.. and muhammed was a maruading filthy pig, i'd even call him a bastard, he was evil incarnate and I have no doubt was motivated by greed and hate and selfishness and to take from those what he wanted even klilling and murdering inncoent people on his climb up over the well to do and the innocent of his time. To pattern a religion after that man is to pattern a government often Adolf Hitler, and a hundred times worse, his very name personifies hate and terrible injustice and the Islamic world from him on have been nothing but takers and destroyers. Islam is a false religion and alie and a distortion of Gods name to include his charcater in the one they call allah. (lower case initial letter used on purpose).

Islam is a 'religion' (I use that term under protest) of terror and not the religion of peace as it claims.

And I realize most here wont agree with me and Im sure I'll get brought up as hate speech but I really dont give a dang, I call things as I see them and thats that.

I will work on the rest of this post when I return from my next job, sorry to side track it a bit.

I hope you were angry when you wrote this.

What you describe is nothing like either Islam or the founder of Islam from the fairly detailed knowledge I have of it. You might try actually talking to some Muslims one day, asking them about their religion and listening to the answers. They are actually a very peaceful bunch of people.