Religious Conversion

[lemon_and_mint]

red,

please dont think i am being offensive here but you miss the point.

Our idea of heaven excludes people who deliberately do harm to others.

However those who follow a god who requests his followers to do harm, will ascend to the equivalent of heaven of that god's making.

Does that make sense?

Lemon
x

[RedGlitter]

Originally Posted by lemon_and_mint

red,

please dont think i am being offensive here but you miss the point.

Our idea of heaven excludes people who deliberately do harm to others.

However those who follow a god who requests his followers to do harm, will ascend to the equivalent of heaven of that god's making.

Does that make sense?

Lemon
x

Hi Lemon,
I'm not offended at all but where did I miss? Please tell me. I would never be so presumptuous as to say there's only one God or that we all basically believe in the same one, but I have to say that I definitely don't believe that a god who asks his followers to do harm is a god at all. I don't believe that followers of that entity will ascend to any kind of heaven or promising afterlife, even one of that "god's" making. I think that "god" would fall under false prophets. Is that what you're saying? If I understood (and it's possible I didn't) are you saying that's what you believe or are you just explaining that it's what those followers believe?? My reasoning for believing as I do is because I don't personally believe God has an evil streak. I think that God is one force but with many different paths to him/her/it/them and many faces, which is why I don't believe there can be only be one "true" religion or one "true" path to God. I do believe God encompasses all, including all the goodness in the world but not evil. I believe evil is its own force. Okay I've probably just gone off on a tangent and made a mess of things! Please help me out. Did I misunderstand again?

I think that going through the motions of a religion, any religion, is just going through the motions. That and $5 bucks will get you a cup of starbucks coffee.

Its the relationship with God that makes the difference inside. True change comes from within to the outward. Relgion doesnt do that, God does.

[lemon_and_mint]

Originally Posted by RedGlitter

Hi Lemon,
I'm not offended at all but where did I miss? Please tell me. I would never be so presumptuous as to say there's only one God or that we all basically believe in the same one, but I have to say that I definitely don't believe that a god who asks his followers to do harm is a god at all. I don't believe that followers of that entity will ascend to any kind of heaven or promising afterlife, even one of that "god's" making. I think that "god" would fall under false prophets. Is that what you're saying? If I understood (and it's possible I didn't) are you saying that's what you believe or are you just explaining that it's what those followers believe?? My reasoning for believing as I do is because I don't personally believe God has an evil streak. I think that God is one force but with many different paths to him/her/it/them and many faces, which is why I don't believe there can be only be one "true" religion or one "true" path to God. I do believe God encompasses all, including all the goodness in the world but not evil. I believe evil is its own force. Okay I've probably just gone off on a tangent and made a mess of things! Please help me out. Did I misunderstand again?

Ah hi red,

now i understnad - it wasnt clear from what you said befoe, i thought you were saying that you did beleive that what those people who wish other people harm worship are gods.Now i see you are saying that you dont believe a god would ask his followers to harm people.

I was just saying that those people who wish others harm, however misguided really do believe that they have been asked to do that by a god.

So when you say that those who do harm will not go to heaven, i am saying but if they believe that they have been asked to do this by a god, then thye beielve that they will ascend to that gods heaven.

My feeling is that in most religions, there is the idea of a god, a demon, and a heaven or afterlife.
I believe that all religions probably just look at these from different angles - there is a lot in Islam and Judaism which overlaps.
However, those who worship Islam who do harm in the name of their God - I believethey they are inadventently worshipping the evil.They dont know they are, they probably really believe they are worshipping a real god who wishses them to do this.

So now i think we do think the same thing red.

Phew it gets complicated to think about, doesnt it?

[RedGlitter]

Complicated indeed. I'm sorry for having been unclear before, I do have that problem sometimes. Thanks for letting me clarify.

[lemon_and_mint]

Originally Posted by RedGlitter

Complicated indeed. I'm sorry for having been unclear before, I do have that problem sometimes. Thanks for letting me clarify.

you know what i do go round in circles with though, red, and i dont know what your vies are on it, although i hope you will tell me, because i think it is a really interesting converstaion we are having here
(and the problem with it being in writing rather than spoke is the timelapse between answers, and the fact that one speaker cant hear the inflexions in what is said, so it is easy to misunderstand what someone means on a forum_,

anyway, i know the story of god casting out the archangel, who became the devil,

how did the devil become so powerful?If he is a minor angel who god was powerful enough to cast out?
Why doesnt god do something to make it clear?After all he has performed miracles before?He could say that the false gods are evil in some way.
When he realised that the archangel was behaving badly after he was cast away, why didnt he just take him back and keep an eye on him?

[RedGlitter]

Originally Posted by lemon_and_mint

you know what i do go round in circles with though, red, and i dont know what your vies are on it, although i hope you will tell me, because i think it is a really interesting converstaion we are having here
(and the problem with it being in writing rather than spoke is the timelapse between answers, and the fact that one speaker cant hear the inflexions in what is said, so it is easy to misunderstand what someone means on a forum_,

anyway, i know the story of god casting out the archangel, who became the devil,

how did the devil become so powerful?If he is a minor angel who god was powerful enough to cast out?
Why doesnt god do something to make it clear?After all he has performed miracles before?He could say that the false gods are evil in some way.
When he realised that the archangel was behaving badly after he was cast away, why didnt he just take him back and keep an eye on him?

That's a good one, Lemon. I can only give you my own opinion on it. I've never really believed that God cast out Lucifer or even that there was a fallen angel. A Christian might be better to answer your question, but I'll still try to tell you what I think....

I think there are two forces in the world, Good and Evil. I think it's always been this way, ever since life or time began. Equal forces. Good being obvious and that of God (if you are atheist there is still the Good force without God) and Evil should be self explanatory. Cold blooded murders, arsonists, rapists, child molesters, people like that. Other bad stuff like say, stealing a candy bar, falls in the space in between as it's not evil but it's wrong.

[lemon_and_mint]

ok i see what you believe now.I also do not believe that the bible was written as a history of god, and therefore the archangel was not a true story.However whoever wrote that may have written it as a representation of which he believed about the forces of good and evil.

And yes that is interesting.But I would still wonder where those forces of good and evil came from.

All babies are innocent when they are born, so makes them become evil?Would it be possible ever to be born and grow up absolutley pure(none of the grey area stuff wich encompases a lot more than stealing a candy bar)?

Very very deep conversation, this one isnt it?

As to my thoughts on the bible, i believe it was written by very many different and put together at various time,s each of them putting into it what they wanted the people to believe whom they came into contact with as perhaps travelling preachers or likewise (remeber that at the time the majority of people could not read and were not educated so they needed to have stories told to them, to entertain them if you like, in order for them to understand and remember what they were being taught).Hence all the little stories within the bible.

[Lon]

There seems to be many different kinds of conversions, death bed conversions, fox hole conversions, jail house conversions, monkey see monkey do conversions, fear conversions. Anything other than a deep seated change in one's personal belief system is merely grabbing at straws and is like wetting the bed, the relief is only temporary.

[Ted]

Lon

I think you are right on.

Shalom
Ted