Who Do Men Say That I Am?

[BHughesNC]

In my newbie intro post I was invited to "jump in" and start a thread, so here goes.

The question about who Jesus is has been around a long time as we see from this scripture:

27 And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?
28 And they answered, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets. 29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

It has sparked many heated discussions. Do you have any thoughts on why it is such a touchy subject?
Thanks
Bobby

[Pheasy]

I did not vote, as there was not an option I could choose.

I would say that Jesus was someone who existed in the past, maybe it was one person or maybe many. There are many people who have received comfort, guidance and hope from the bible, and their belief in the existence of God and his son.

Welcome to FG, happy postings

[spot]

The question is do we have any thoughts on why "whom do men say that Jesus is" is such a touchy subject.

Why it's such a touchy question is that someone back in the 1st century decided that Christians knew the truth about God and - more to the point - that nobody else did. Let's call him George. Some people believe they know who George actually was, the guy who had this idea, but all I know is that he existed. Some people think George was God himself, some people think the guy who thought it was Jesus, or maybe he was John the Evangelist, or perhaps he was just the bloke who wrote John's Gospel - the man who wrote "we know that his testimony is true" - who claimed he'd got the story from Saint John himself (from "the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down"). Or perhaps George was Saint Paul. Whichever of them had it, the notion that nobody else but Christians knew the truth about God was extreme.

George's idea ended up in the bible, where the author of John's Gospel says that Saint John informed him that he'd heard Jesus tell Saint Thomas that "No one comes to the Father except through me". It ended up in Saint Luke's account of the questioning of Saints Peter and John before the Sanhedrin where Peter tells them that "It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead ... salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved". George has a lot to answer for, this idea he had has been the cause immeasurable suffering and slaughter since. This is what the Crusades were about. This is why we have evangelists and missionaries, this idea that nothing other than Christian faith - the power of the name of Jesus Christ - can lead a person into the presence of God.

Somehow, this idea of George's has to be shown to be fallible because it's destructive. Either George's opinion can be treated as non-binding or Christianity has to go the way of the Dodo. George's bright idea leads to pogroms, it causes holocausts, it starts wars, it kills people. There are too many people who insist that nobody can be a Christian who denies the truth of George's opinion for it to be set aside as a trivial extreme fringe theory held only by nutters. I think it's more Christian to destroy the entire flawed religion and start again from scratch.

Jesus is messiah, the son of God, the man, who by sacrifice offers salvation to all by justifying all those who believe and delcare them sinless before God re-establishing the relationship that was broken because of sin.

Amen.

[BHughesNC]

Spot. I appreciate you very thorough approach to my post. Believe it or not I enjoyed reading it. I guess a lot of people think that Christians are very one sighted, narrow minded people. My observation is that "Christainity" has been blamed for wars, death, destruction, and other horrible outcomes. I would like to submit that it is not a belief in Jesus as the only way to know God and an aceptance of His gift of life that causes this distortion. I think it is the pursuit of power that such an idea might give those who profess it that causes the trouble. There are many ordinary men with extraordinary ideas that have led to hatred and destruction. (Hitler for example). Just imagine how his (Hitler's) followers must have thought what they were doing was right. Jesus' teachings do not condone such activity. IMHO Jesus could have put an end to it long ago, however He does not want to be our dictator. In the Old Testament days God's chosen people destorted the will of God to the point that it had to be fulfilled by Christ's death and resurrection. Christians need to realize we are not here to rule the world, we should be seeking a higher Kingdom. We are taught to be a humble people, but some even so called "Christians" cannot let go of their humaness.

Bobby

[BHughesNC]

Originally Posted by Jester

Jesus is messiah, the son of God, the man, who by sacrifice offers salvation to all by justifying all those who believe and delcare them sinless before God re-establishing the relationship that was broken because of sin.

Amen.

Jester, I say Amen to ALL that!

Bobby

[spot]

Originally Posted by BHughesNC

Spot. I appreciate you very thorough approach to my post. Believe it or not I enjoyed reading it. I guess a lot of people think that Christians are very one sighted, narrow minded people. My observation is that "Christainity" has been blamed for wars, death, destruction, and other horrible outcomes. I would like to submit that it is not a belief in Jesus as the only way to know God and an aceptance of His gift of life that causes this distortion. I think it is the pursuit of power that such an idea might give those who profess it that causes the trouble. There are many ordinary men with extraordinary ideas that have led to hatred and destruction. (Hitler for example). Just imagine how his (Hitler's) followers must have thought what they were doing was right. Jesus' teachings do not condone such activity. IMHO Jesus could have put an end to it long ago, however He does not want to be our dictator. In the Old Testament days God's chosen people destorted the will of God to the point that it had to be fulfilled by Christ's death and resurrection. Christians need to realize we are not here to rule the world, we should be seeking a higher Kingdom. We are taught to be a humble people, but some even so called "Christians" cannot let go of their humaness.

Bobby

It's all very well trying to dodge Christianity's responsibility for interpreting the bible in such an extreme way but the results you describe are a consequence of the interpretation. If nobody comes to the Father save through the Son then where do these non-Christians all end up? In hell, of course. What do we do with the hell-bound wherever we find them on earth? Convert them or send them on their way. This isn't a Hitlerian response as you suggest, this is what the Godly do to the Hell-bound (for their own good, you understand). They go out and evangelize in order to save them.They convert those who would otherwise be damned. If any refuse salvation, why on earth not kill them? They're actively preventing the conversion of others by their example and they're worse than worthless because they're not going to Heaven, they are not destined for the Choir Celestial, they are demonic.

Now, if Christians were capable of accepting that there are other paths to God besides Christianity all this slaughter and mayhem disappears, the future becomes rosy and we no longer end up wanting to nuke devil-worshipping Iranians back into the stone age. Who's stopping them? Bloody George is, that's who, and I don't for one moment care who bloody George was, he called it wrong and he reaped the most ungodly consequences from opening his big mouth. The least his modern-day co-religionists can do is to apologize on his behalf.

Christians "need to realize we are not here to rule the world, we should be seeking a higher Kingdom"? That's perfect when the internal rules are applied internally. Reading what George wrote, though, you feel a burning desire to go out among the unsaved and salvage souls, and that's where wars start.

Why can't you simply contradict George instead?

[Ted]

BHughesNC

Welcome. I do hope you enjoy your wanderings in the garden.

I do agree with some of what spot says. However, and at the moment I cannot remember the source, more people have been murdered by atheistic states than so called Christians throughout the history of man.

That being said spot is correct in his comments on exclusivism. Exclusivism leads to all kinds of evil things: division, war, racial intolerance, religious intolerance, hatred, arrogance, animosity, murder, terrorism and a whole host of other evils. Jesus did not intend this to happen. Exclusivism has not place in the Christian faith or any other faith for that matter.

All of the great faiths of the world were founded upon two principles; justice and compassion. Look at what man has done to them in the name of God.

After some 40+ years of study both informal and formal and continuing at universities and the Vancouver School of Theology I have been led to accept the position of a Christian pluralist. That is I recognize the validity of all of the great faiths.

Now to answer the question. Exclusivism is the problem and Jesus never intended that. In fact he never intended to start a new religion. Like Luther he wanted to reform the church from within. He was a very devout practicing Jew.

The fact is that Jesus never made such a comment. It is a midrashim. If you want clarification of that term I can give it to you.

Shalom
Ted

Originally Posted by spot

It's all very well trying to dodge Christianity's responsibility for interpreting the bible in such an extreme way but the results you describe are a consequence of the interpretation. If nobody comes to the Father save through the Son then where do these non-Christians all end up? In hell, of course. What do we do with the hell-bound wherever we find them on earth? Convert them or send them on their way. This isn't a Hitlerian response as you suggest, this is what the Godly do to the Hell-bound (for their own good, you understand). They go out and evangelize in order to save them.They convert those who would otherwise be damned. If any refuse salvation, why on earth not kill them? They're actively preventing the conversion of others by their example and they're worse than worthless because they're not going to Heaven, they are not destined for the Choir Celestial, they are demonic.

Now, if Christians were capable of accepting that there are other paths to God besides Christianity all this slaughter and mayhem disappears, the future becomes rosy and we no longer end up wanting to nuke devil-worshipping Iranians back into the stone age. Who's stopping them? Bloody George is, that's who, and I don't for one moment care who bloody George was, he called it wrong and he reaped the most ungodly consequences from opening his big mouth. The least his modern-day co-religionists can do is to apologize on his behalf.

Christians "need to realize we are not here to rule the world, we should be seeking a higher Kingdom"? That's perfect when the internal rules are applied internally. Reading what George wrote, though, you feel a burning desire to go out among the unsaved and salvage souls, and that's where wars start.

Why can't you simply contradict George instead?

As a believer I dont need to 'rule the world'. I have no desire to 'press' others into right belief as if I'm filling a ship of the line for the kings service, and the bible, other than commanding the beliver in going and telling does not command to kill if they dont believe.

[spot]

So what in God's name is motivating all these wretched missionaries and evangelists then? I've lots of Hindu friends and not one of them has the slightest desire to convert anyone because they don't get taught that Hinduism is an exclusive path to God.