The Terms of Membership

[Pheasy]

Okay - sorry my OP was a little vague.

Most of my friends are religious and regular church-goers (although I am not myself), they are wonderful, kind people who I trust, and am honored to call them my friends.

I recently had the misfortune of encountering someone who is also a regular church-goer, but is a despicable person. I fail to understand how she could claim to be under gods umbrella. Hence my question. Is there standards?

[Sheryl]

Sorry Pheasy, you came across what I call the "Sunday" Christian. Nice as can be in church, but wouldn't spit on you to put out a fire any other day of the week. They exist, but it's not what we are all about.

[jones jones]

Originally Posted by ThePheasant

Okay - sorry my OP was a little vague.

Most of my friends are religious and regular church-goers (although I am not myself), they are wonderful, kind people who I trust, and am honored to call them my friends.

I recently had the misfortune of encountering someone who is also a regular church-goer, but is a despicable person. I fail to understand how she could claim to be under gods umbrella. Hence my question. Is there standards?

in my experience miss pheasant ... and let me say at the outset that i am an atheist ... i have found that many people use christianity AND the church for their own purposes ...

many christians simply assume that because they believe in their god and their bible they are good honest trustworthy people whose integrity cannot and should not be doubted ....

i have certain issues with present day christians and their churches and i have found that the so called "organised" religions are not what they are cracked up to be ...

there is a so called charismatic church near my home who have a large billboard outside their church ... which is a vast and very wealthy church i might add ... and recently on this billboard they proclaimed that "six people had been raised from the dead" ...

even the saviour they profess to follow .. jesus of nazareth ... never in his time raised that many people from the dead ..

having said all the above it is their democratic and constitutional right to believe in and to worship whatever god and saviour they like ...

i only wish they wouldn't keep trying to convert me ...

i've never ever seen an atheist standing on the street corner urging passersby NOT to believe in the christian god or bible!

Jj

[spot]

I speak here on behalf of the Methodist community of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Most Methodists would disagree with my comments.

There's a major difference between the Methodist community here and that in the USA, in that John Wesley specifically ordained Francis Asbury with authority to create Bishops in the United States, thereby founding a Christian denomination. In contrast, here, he fought for decades to keep Methodism as a "Society" within the Church of England, refusing to allow the Society to meet at the same time on Sundays as the Church of England's services so as not to prevent any of the Methodist membership from attending their parish church services.

So, within this Society, he maintained draconian rules of membership. Every Quarter the Society considered the behaviour of every member and handed out a Class Ticket showing them to be members in good standing. Periodic visits by John Wesley himself would purge membership lists by half overnight as he enquired and searched the souls of those he was inspecting. Those membership Class Tickets still exist, they're still given out (or not!) and they still depend (both in theory and in practice) on the Church Council's decision with respect to all the individuals who attend that church. The main difference between now and the 18th century is that a church doesn't face the terrifying prospect of a visit by John Wesley and the invariable decimation of the ranks which it brought.

After John Wesley died - possibly even just before - the rule on service times was relaxed, and with Wesley gone the authority of the Society was vested in an annual Connexional Meeting which appointed Ministers, Superintendent Ministers and officers of the Conference. We still have no Bishops. By 1820 the argument against musical instruments in services had been won by the musicians at the cost of splitting the church in two. Those divided again. The 19th century through until 1932 was a period of fragmentation which left Methodism with very powerful roots in different traditions, from primitive evangelists through to churches almost indistinguishable from High Anglican. Well, Anglican anyway. When they came together at the Uniting Conference they built a broad church which could never have come into being in any other way and the last 75 years have been astonishing in consequence.

We may, soon, re-merge back into Anglicanism and no longer be a Church. In my mind it's going back to the ideal John Wesley started with.

Anyway, that's what we do in terms of ordering our membership here. It's down to the senior committee members to interpret the Spirit and hand out tickets.

[Pheasy]

Originally Posted by Sheryl

Sorry Pheasy, you came across what I call the "Sunday" Christian. Nice as can be in church, but wouldn't spit on you to put out a fire any other day of the week. They exist, but it's not what we are all about.

When I think of her this image comes to mind

[Ted]

Pheasy

If we were to list, in detail, the terms of membership that Wesley's visits would seem like a small exercise. No human being is perfect, so all of us would be turfed out. Jesus spent most of his ministry associating with the low classes, the tax collectors, sinners, prostitutes etc. He welcomes all who will come.

In the Anglican church of Canada if you are baptized, soon to change, than you can be accepted as a member. Even in the Eucharist we now invite anyone who wishes, to partake. It is time that we let God be the judge and that we as Christians simply present the grace of God.

Of course we all make mistakes. I hate the word sin because it has become virtually meaningless in our present society. We all do things that separate us from the love of God and the love of our fellow man. That is what is wrong with us.

Shalom
Ted

[AussiePam]

Originally Posted by spot

I speak here on behalf of the Methodist community of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Most Methodists would disagree with my comments.

There's a major difference between the Methodist community here and that in the USA, in that John Wesley specifically ordained Francis Asbury with authority to create Bishops in the United States, thereby founding a Christian denomination. In contrast, here, he fought for decades to keep Methodism as a "Society" within the Church of England, refusing to allow the Society to meet at the same time on Sundays as the Church of England's services so as not to prevent any of the Methodist membership from attending their parish church services.

So, within this Society, he maintained draconian rules of membership. Every Quarter the Society considered the behaviour of every member and handed out a Class Ticket showing them to be members in good standing. Periodic visits by John Wesley himself would purge membership lists by half overnight as he enquired and searched the souls of those he was inspecting. Those membership Class Tickets still exist, they're still given out (or not!) and they still depend (both in theory and in practice) on the Church Council's decision with respect to all the individuals who attend that church. The main difference between now and the 18th century is that a church doesn't face the terrifying prospect of a visit by John Wesley and the invariable decimation of the ranks which it brought.

After John Wesley died - possibly even just before - the rule on service times was relaxed, and with Wesley gone the authority of the Society was vested in an annual Connexional Meeting which appointed Ministers, Superintendent Ministers and officers of the Conference. We still have no Bishops. By 1820 the argument against musical instruments in services had been won by the musicians at the cost of splitting the church in two. Those divided again. The 19th century through until 1932 was a period of fragmentation which left Methodism with very powerful roots in different traditions, from primitive evangelists through to churches almost indistinguishable from High Anglican. Well, Anglican anyway. When they came together at the Uniting Conference they built a broad church which could never have come into being in any other way and the last 75 years have been astonishing in consequence.

We may, soon, re-merge back into Anglicanism and no longer be a Church. In my mind it's going back to the ideal John Wesley started with.

Anyway, that's what we do in terms of ordering our membership here. It's down to the senior committee members to interpret the Spirit and hand out tickets.

OMG Spot, that explains a lot. Takes me back to the grim days of my Sydney "Church of England" childhood experiences. The Diocese of Sydney, alone of all the Anglican Dioceses of Australia, is almost totally methodist still. For me it was frightening, alienating, and I remember people being 'found wanting' and voted out of the fold. I only found an Anglican spiritual home outside that city. Thank you for the clarification.

[mikeinie]

If God had a face what would it look like
And would you want to see
If seeing meant that you would have to believe
In things like heaven and in jesus and the saints and all the prophets

Joan Osbourne

[american parable]

The only baptism that really matters is a baptism of the Holy Spirit. Believe the gospel: Jesus died for the sins of the world, was buried and rose again to eternal life. Faith + nothing.

[Ted]

american

That is of course, one interpretation of the death of Jesus. There are others as well.

Shalom
Ted