The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.

[Ted]

BH

Of course the fact that I find that particular doctrine incorrect does not make it so.

That being said I will quote J. D. Hall quoting Dorothy L. Sayers.

"God wanted to damn everybody, but his vindictive sadism was sated by the crucifixion of his own Son, who was quite innocent, and, therefore, a particularly attractive victim. He now only damns people who don't follow Christ or who have never heard of him." pg. 136, "God and Human Suffering", J. D. Hall.

This does raise the question of what kind of God is this? He was so angry that he demanded blood even if it was one closest to him. Christianity is not based on human sacrifice. That was the Aztecs and the Incas.

Shalom
Ted

[Ted]

There are of course three approaches to justice in the Bible; criminal justice, procedural justice and social justice. It always amazes me that some zero in on only one kind where Amos was concerned about social justice and so was Jesus. This is just another example of picking and choosing. Borg.

Shalom
Ted

[Mickiel]

One thing I have Learned about the Salvation offered in the Bible, is that it is how God choose to bring humanity into existance through weakness and suffering, which later will develop into strength and no more suffering. You just have to learn what you are exposed to, and why, if you are able to comprehend. For example, I have learned that many unbelievers are interested in hearing about the Salvation of all, I have also learned that when Christians enter into that conversation, they try to kill it, because they don't believe in the salvation of all. So I rarely enjoy conversations with Christians, they have a mindset that I just can't get with. And I don't want to get with it. In my studies of the bible, I view Christianity as the greatest threat to Salvation that exist. An interesting paradox, they very people who would like the world to think they represent God, are really not representing the Salvation of the Bible. So when the bible discusses deception as being powerful, I believe it, espically when I can see it for myself.

I Like Lamatations 3:31-32;" For the Lord willnot reject forever." This cancels out any belief in eternal hell, because if such a place exsisted, that would mean that God rejected those people forever. But the bible shows me that God does not reject forever. Thats why I do not listen to Christians, they are not teaching what is in the bible. Vs.32;" For If the Lord causes greif, then he will have compassion according to his abundant kindness." God will " Cause Greif", he most certainly will and the bible shows that, but he has his reasons for doing that, and those reasons ALWAYS result in the righteousness of the person as Gods compassion is extended to them.

And I want to go into that. Peace.

[Mickiel]

I think I have made it obvious by now that I believe in the bible, which is really a book about Salvation and creation. The conception of the bible is stunning to me, how it was conceived is simply magical. I hold a certain foundness for writing, but just how the bible was written impresses me. It was written by some 40 different Authors who lived over a span of 1500 years, most of whom didnot know each other and didnot compare notes. Yet its cohesion is stunning. Most of these writers held different occupations and none of them were professional writers. They lived in different places and each had different characthers. And Archaeology has unearthed so much that literally proves the bible as authentic, that it is a proven historical book.

It is the message of the bible that many are pessimistic about. Full of optimistic hope, people instead view Salvation with a pestimistic aittitude, which is really a form of unbelief. And I want to touch on that some. Peace.

[Mickiel]

In Lamentations 3:22 is the view of God that I get from the bible. It says that Gods Loving Kindness never ceases, it never stops, that his compassions NEVER fail. I think this is how God really is, and the bible has shifted my belief in that area. So I don't worry about people who do not believe in God, nor feel any impulse to convince or condemn them.

In vs. 31-32;" For the Lord willnot Reject Forever", this verse cancels out this horrid belief in eternal punishing, because for eternal punishing to exist, God must reject these humans , for some reason, forever. Vs. 32;" For if he causes grief, then he will have compassion according to HIS abundant Lovingkindness." Two things are evident here, that God will actually cause suffering, and that he will have compassion which will show his true intent, Kindness, and this seems to be a contridiction.

In verses 1-13 Jeremiah literally reveals how God has driven him into Darkness, repeatedly turned against him all day long, caused his skin and bones to waste away, literally broken his bones, caused bitterness and hardship to fall on him. He trapped him in situations that he couldnot get out, and shut out his prayers. Blocked his ways and MADE him crooked. This is what God did to this man, and he is doing this to this world. This helped me to understand Romans 11:32 much better;" For God has shut up ALL in disobedience." But why? " In order that he will show MERCY to them ALL."

This is the real Pathology of God, and the real message about this God in the Bible. And I want to touch on that some. Peace.

[Ted]

Mickiel

My background and formal studies are in biblical history, translation, interpretation, some theology, the study of the history of the Bible as opposed to biblical history.

The Bible is not an historical book. It is primarily a religious book written in a particular ancient style called midrash. This is also a style of interpretation. Midrash comes from the very people who wrote the Bible. This writing style makes a great deal of use of metaphor, in its broadest sense, and uses a prior important event in defining a newer event. Such a style is used to show the importance of a newer event. For example the story of Joshua crossing the Jordan on dry land was written that way to show the importance of the entrance into the promised land. This story relies on the most important Hebrew story of all, the escape from the promised land. The Exodus story is itself a myth but probably based on the expulsion of the Hyksos from the Nile delta.

Archaeology does not support the contention that the Bible is an historical book. It does support that there are kernels of history spread throughout. History does not support the historical accuracy of the Bible. It was not written to be taken literally. That was not the intention of the writers.

Shalom
Ted

[Mickiel]

I have seen Christians time and time again trying to prove that Salvation is only for those who " Accept God", believe in him and obey him. I wonder to myself what bible are they reading, or how are they interpiting God. In Isaiah 65:1 listen to what God himself has said, not those who believe in him, but Gods own words;"I permitted myself to be sought by those who didnot ask for me; I permitted myself to be found by those who didnot seek me. I said, here I am, here I am, to a whole nation which didnot call on my name."

Here God saves a whole nation of people who rejected him, not just one day of rejection, but continually rejecting him. These people provoked God, disobeyed him, I mean provoked him face to face, vs.3. And yet God permitted them to find him. Look, this is how God really is. This is the real God, and its right here in your bible, and I want to show you much more Hope that is in there. Peace.

[BHughesNC]

Mickiel

When you finish the scripture you referred to it proves that God will pour out His righteous judgment on those who do not serve Him

The Righteousness of God’s Judgment
1 “I was sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I was found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’
To a nation that was not called by My name.
2 I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people,
Who walk in a way that is not good,
According to their own thoughts;
3 A people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face;
Who sacrifice in gardens,
And burn incense on altars of brick;
4 Who sit among the graves,
And spend the night in the tombs;
Who eat swine’s flesh,
And the broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
5 Who say, ‘Keep to yourself,
Do not come near me,
For I am holier than you!’
These are smoke in My nostrils,
A fire that burns all the day.
6 “ Behold, it is written before Me:
I will not keep silence, but will repay—
Even repay into their bosom—
7 Your iniquities and the iniquities of your fathers together,”
Says the LORD,

“ Who have burned incense on the mountains
And blasphemed Me on the hills;
Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom.”

8 Thus says the LORD:


“ As the new wine is found in the cluster,
And one says, ‘Do not destroy it,
For a blessing is in it,’
So will I do for My servants’ sake,
That I may not destroy them all.
9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.
10 Sharon shall be a fold of flocks,
And the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down,
For My people who have sought Me.
11 “ But you are those who forsake the LORD,
Who forget My holy mountain,
Who prepare a table for Gad,[a]
And who furnish a drink offering for Meni.[b]
12 Therefore I will number you for the sword,
And you shall all bow down to the slaughter;
Because, when I called, you did not answer;
When I spoke, you did not hear,
But did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.”

God Bless

[Ted]

A quote from "The Heart of Christianity", Marcus Borg, pg76.

"God as the lawgiver and judge is the God of "works" that Paul and Luther and theProtestant Reformation in general rejected. Instead they affirmed radical grace: God's acceptance of us is unconditional not dependent upon something we believe or do. But radical grace has most often been too radical for most Christians. We most often put conditions on God's grace: God accepts you if . . . And whenever an "if" clause is added, grace becomes conditional and ceases to be grace.


An important clarification: unconditional grace is not about how we get to heaven or who goes to heaven. The notion that salvation is primarily about "going to heaven" is a distortion; and when it is seen as primary, the notion of unconditional grace leads to the notion that everybody gets to go to heaven, regardless of their life and faith. However, unconditional grace is not about the afterlife, but the basis for our relationship with God in this life. Is the basis for our life with God law or grace, requirements and rewards or relationship and transformation? Grace affirms the latter."

This is not to comment on any afterlife. Our belief and hope as Christians is that there is more than the here and now. Christianity is about our relationship with God. Leave worrying about the afterlife to God. That is His purview.

Shalom
Ted

[Mickiel]

The Bible continues to shift gears in my belief, because I have learned to listen to it, and not to men. In Hebrews 8:11-12;" And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying Know the Lord, For they ALL shall know me, from the least to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." Here again is the message of Universal Salvation that includes everyone. From the least of us to the greatest of us, we all will one day know God. This is the destiny of humanity.

And God will be merciful to us all, and he himself has said that he willnot even remember our sins, THAT is the final judgement of God on humanity. These are the very words of God, on these, Gods word, lay the Hope of all of humanity. And I want to show you more. Peace.