The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.

[spot]

Off-hand I note Luke 13:3: "I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish". It sounds rather distant from what you're offering. There's also "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law" from Romans 2:12. One wonders what perish and judge mean if they're not to be granted the weight they carry in a normal dictionary. Why "if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell"? Is Matthew in 18:9 speaking of a non-judgemental non-punishing sort of hell? Why does he highlight the fire? "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" - it's obvious that nobody told Matthew in 23:33 what you've been told.

How much of 2 Peter 2 can I quote without sounding preachy? If God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard) - if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

John is fairly explicit in 3:36 with "Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him". Paul agrees in Romans 2:5, "Because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed". As he told the Ephesians in 5:6, "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient". The angel of Revelation 14:19, you will remember, "swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath". None of this fits well with the Salvation of all. Perhaps we need a new bible for this new religion you're offering. I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion in the slightest, I just don't think the bible's a very good place to go for confirmation.

What does "believe in" mean, in "I do believe in the bible"?

[Hope6]

my favorite verse is John 3:16 For God so loved the world he gave His only begotton son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.
i heard a preacher once call this Christianity in a nutshell because it summed up what our faith is supposed to be about.
i take it to mean that regardless of what else we do, if we believe Jesus is the Savior we are saved.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Hope6

i take it to mean that regardless of what else we do, if we believe Jesus is the Savior we are saved.

Does it not also imply that regardless of what else we do, if we refuse to believe Jesus is the Savior we are damned?

[Mickiel]

[quote=spot;
None of this fits well with the Salvation of all. Perhaps we need a new bible for this new religion you're offering. I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion in the slightest, I just don't think the bible's a very good place to go for confirmation.

QUOTE]



I am not involved with any religion, nor seeking to start one. In fact, I don't like religion, nor do I like searching the Scriptures for death or to find condemnation., I like to search them to find life and Salvation. No new bible is needed, explain to me what scriptures I have used that are not in the bible. I simply believe the ones I have shown, as I believe this one; Hebrews 2:9, latter part of verse;" That by the Grace of God he might taste death for everyone." That everyone includes those in the perishing and judgement verses you have shown. This gives them the hope that cynical Christians would take away from them.

I also like Luke 9:56;" For the Son of man didnot come to destroy mens lives, but to save them." This is what I believe in and see in the bible, and its also why I cannot attend Christian churchs. I am not attracted to the message that seems to confirm that the vast majority of humanitys lives will be herded into some punishing pit for eternity. In Mark 3:28, Jesus says all the sins of men will be forgiven, again a conformation of total forgiveness for humanity that includes sinners, forgiveness is not an exclusive right of Christians, but you can't tell them that. Christians are trying to keep Salvation and forgiveness all to themselves.

In Luke 3:6 it states that All flesh shall see the Salvation of God. All flesh means everyone shall see Salvation, its their inheritence. Theres no need to get a new bible, these verses are in the bible you are reading, your just not attracted to them, as most Christians are not. Christians search the bible for ways to condemn others who do not believe as they do, which is a turn off to me. I have grown tired of it, so I have as little to do with them as possible.

In 1 Tim. 4:10;" For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is " The Savior of ALL Men", especially of believers." My hope is fixed on this same amazing fact, that God will save all humans, but then it pauses and states espically those who believe, and obvious reference to the before mentioned God being the Savior of all men, which have to be unbelievers, because it adds in addition, " Espically of believers." Wondeful salvation verse, simply stunning, the hope it gives to unbelievers. And the biblical message is actually fixed on this, very oppisite from the Christian fixation on hell and judgement. Peace.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

explain to me what scriptures I have used that are not in the bible

There are some quarrelsome factions within Christianity who raise their eyebrows if they feel you're picking and choosing just those passages which you like while rejecting those you don't.

You're telling me I have absolutely no way to refuse Salvation and judge God? I was rather counting that I'd be able to somehow, it's kept me optimistic all these years.

The position you're pleased with has a long history in Christianity, some of which is discussed on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

[Hope6]

Originally Posted by spot

Does it not also imply that regardless of what else we do, if we refuse to believe Jesus is the Savior we are damned?

well Jesus also said I am the way the truth and the life, no one cometh unto the Father but by me. so i guess it is saying that.

[spot]

You don't find that even vaguely sick-making?

[Mickiel]

[quote=spot;840420]There are some quarrelsome factions within Christianity who raise their eyebrows if they feel you're picking and choosing just those passages which you like while rejecting those you don't.

You're telling me I have absolutely no way to refuse Salvation and judge God? I was rather counting that I'd be able to somehow, it's kept me optimistic all these years.


I have never said that you can't do anything of the sort, do as you please, it matters not to me what you do. I'm going to do and believe as I please, why would I speak against others doing the same. Explain to me where I said to you that you cannot refuse salvation or judge God, show me where I said that to you. If this is a foretaste of what it is like to converse with you, then you could manufactor anything and claim I said things that I have not said, such conversations with those who do that are never meaningful.

My position has nothing to do with Christianity, or those who have usurped the name Christian. My positions are my own, mine and mine alone. I am not affiliated with any group, muchless christians. Peace.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

I have never said that you can't do anything of the sort, do as you please, it matters not to me what you do. I'm going to do and believe as I please, why would I speak against others doing the same. Explain to me where I said to you that you cannot refuse salvation or judge God, show me where I said that to you. If this is a foretaste of what it is like to converse with you, then you could manufactor anything and claim I said things that I have not said, such conversations with those who do that are never meaningful.

You're kidding me - it's the core of your opening post! "if this being has a will of none perishing, I don't see how his will cannot be done"! What does that mean except nobody is capable of avoiding salvation?

How about this bit later on? "the only troubling part about your post, is the assumption that God has left Salvation up to each individuals personal choice or will or something like that. I find that quite troubling, because it suggest that God has left salvation up to the individual persons choice of will or belief, which would still leave most of humanity in a bit of confusion, because most people willnot choose God if Salvation was left to them. I am sure that God is aware of this, so why would a being like God, who is wise enough to know that humans are foolish enough to choose not to believe in him, elect to make Salvation a human choice thing?" - what does that mean except nobody is capable of avoiding salvation?

I wouldn't dream of manufacturing anything and claim you said things that you have not said. It would be silly, you'd just point back and make a fool of me by showing it wasn't true.

[Mickiel]

Originally Posted by spot

You're kidding me - it's the core of your opening post! "if this being has a will of none perishing, I don't see how his will cannot be done"! What does that mean except nobody is capable of avoiding salvation?

How about this bit later on? "the only troubling part about your post, is the assumption that God has left Salvation up to each individuals personal choice or will or something like that. I find that quite troubling, because it suggest that God has left salvation up to the individual persons choice of will or belief, which would still leave most of humanity in a bit of confusion, because most people willnot choose God if Salvation was left to them. I am sure that God is aware of this, so why would a being like God, who is wise enough to know that humans are foolish enough to choose not to believe in him, elect to make Salvation a human choice thing?" - what does that mean except nobody is capable of avoiding salvation?

I wouldn't dream of manufacturing anything and claim you said things that you have not said. It would be silly, you'd just point back and make a fool of me by showing it wasn't true.

I repeat, I have never stated that you can't refuse Salvation, you can refuse it until your red in the Face, you can make all the judgements against God that you so please. This is what the majority of humans have already done, why should I state that they cannot do whats already been done. It matters not to me what they have done, or what you will do.

Peace.