The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

I repeat, I have never stated that you can't refuse Salvation, you can refuse it until your red in the Face, you can make all the judgements against God that you so please. This is what the majority of humans have already done, why should I state that they cannot do whats already been done. It matters not to me what they have done, or what you will do.

This is a distinction between attempt to and succeed in, then. I can unsuccessfully refuse salvation, you tell me. That rather fails in my purpose, don't you think? The whole point of refusing Salvation is to point out to God what a dreadful and complete hash He's made of Creation, it's my one and only way of voting with my feet and telling the old fraud that he's worse than useless. What'll I have to do? Rape an angel? Tear off their wings? And meanwhile eternal life singing hymns in the celestial choir will be mandatory regardless of how much I spoil the performance? I must say I find your theology rather unlikely.

[Mickiel]

Originally Posted by spot

This is a distinction between attempt to and succeed in, then. I can unsuccessfully refuse salvation, you tell me. That rather fails in my purpose, don't you think? The whole point of refusing Salvation is to point out to God what a dreadful and complete hash He's made of Creation, it's my one and only way of voting with my feet and telling the old fraud that he's worse than useless. What'll I have to do? Rape an angel? Tear off their wings? And meanwhile eternal life singing hymns in the celestial choir will be mandatory regardless of how much I spoil the performance? I must say I find your theology rather unlikely.

For the third and last time, I have never told you that you can't refeuse Salvation. I said that I believe Salvation is going to be given to everyone, I never said that no one can refuse it. Never. Listen, if your intent on climing the empire state building and jumping off, thats your business and your right to do so. If you want to eat rocks or argue with God giving you Salvation, thats your right to do so, I'm certainly not going to tell you that you can't, or try to stop you, for the third time, you do and believe as you wish, it makes no difference to me.

Allow me to write that again very clearly. I Have Never Stated That no one can refuse Salvation. And I couldcareless about those who who have a mind to refuse it, as I couldcareless about those who try to limit it from others, both groups are of no concern of mine.

Peace

[spot]

So why would a being like God elect to make Salvation a human choice thing?

He's going to save all of humanity, you tell me. I'm a part of humanity. I refuse point-blank to be saved. Where does that leave me? Still singing out of tune around the Throne through gritted teeth, completely unwilling but compelled by force?

If I've misunderstood you and I can successfully refuse salvation then He's not going to save all of humanity and it turns out that, despite what you started with, Salvation is a human choice thing after all. I'd rather hoped it was.

[Mickiel]

Originally Posted by spot

So why would a being like God, who is wise enough to know that humans are foolish enough to choose not to believe in him, elect to make Salvation a human choice thing?Quote

Again, I have never stated that Salvation was a choice thing. I have stated that it will be meaningless to converse with you, because you put words in peoples mouths that they have not stated. I already know this conversation with you is meaningless, because you keep saying that I have said things that I have not. I said Salvation is free and given not according to choice.




He's going to save all of humanity, you tell me. I'm a part of humanity. I refuse point-blank to be saved. Where does that leave me? Still singing out of tune around the Throne through gritted teeth, completely unwilling but compelled by force?

Well refuse it. It matters not to me that you refuse it, thats the way it is with you. God is not going to force humanity to believe in him, he does not have to. Your mind is closed to God, what your really asking is what he is going to do with you and others like you. Well he gave you a closed mind, so it falls to him to give you an open one. You talking about a God man, he can manipulate your mind and belief in any manner that he wishes too, and there would be absolutely nothing your strong oppisition could do about it. Nothing. He can change your very belief, manipulate your views from the core of your mind, implant within you any kind of thinking he so pleases.

He's already done it to you. You think now in the manner that you do, because God wanted you to oppose him. He wants you to reject him, and thats exactly what you are doing. Peace.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

You talking about a God man, he can manipulate your mind and belief in any manner that he wishes too, and there would be absolutely nothing your strong oppisition could do about it. Nothing. He can change your very belief, manipulate your views from the core of your mind, implant within you any kind of thinking he so pleases.

Then He's evil and I'm right to rebel against him. Anything omnipotent is by definition evil. If your view of God is of an omnipotent being then you're worshipping the devil in disguise. Shake it off while you still can. Anything absolutely capable of doing good who refuses to do it is evil. That's not God, not if my dictionary knows anything about words.

Mickiel,

Just to clarify then you are saying that in your journey through the scriptures to date, you have determined that salvation is rendered to everyone equally, and it matters not whether one recieves it or rejects it salvation is sure to each person ever born. Is that right?

Jester

[Hope6]

Originally Posted by spot

You don't find that even vaguely sick-making?

no, i guess because i was raised in the Christian faith, my parents started carrrying me to church at the age of 2, so i learned this at an early age.

being a Christian means you believe in Jesus Christ, hence the name.
so if we don't have the belief in the resurrection we have nothing.
our entire religion stems on the belief that Jesus died so we could be saved.

Mickiel, Please define the term 'salvation' as your using it.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Hope6

being a Christian means you believe in Jesus Christ, hence the name.

And - to extend the point - being a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist who's rejected Jesus Christ to stay within the faith of his community means you're condemned for eternity to hell, hence my question. That's a consequence of what you've written. It's why I asked whether you don't find that even vaguely sick-making. How can you not? Two adults in a hundred in India are Christians.

[Mickiel]

Originally Posted by spot

Then He's evil and I'm right to rebel against him. Anything omnipotent is by definition evil. If your view of God is of an omnipotent being then you're worshipping the devil in disguise. Shake it off while you still can. Anything absolutely capable of doing good who refuses to do it is evil. That's not God, not if my dictionary knows anything about words.

You rebel against him because thats what he wants you to do, thats the bottom line. The devil exist because God wants him to exist, thats the bottom line. You think like you do because God wants you to rebel against, and you will stay in that frame of mind until he releases you from it. And I believe the time will come when God releases us all from the stupidity were are trapped in.

You don't stand a chance Spot, your rebellion will go just where God wants it to go, and last as long as he wills it to. All Atheist are Atheist, because God wanted them to be Atheist, and every last one of them is destined to be with God, like it or not. You don't have a choice in that. Its nothing you can do about it. God cannot be manipulated by your hissy fits, you cannot bargain with him, your just in his hands, thats just all too it. Your future with him is not left to you.

And the same thing goes for any human, it matters not what they believe.

Peace.