Proof of God

[yaaarrrgg]

Originally Posted by Accountable

Bobby didn't ask to prove non-existence, he asked if you can name an event or situation that would prove to you beyond a doubt that God is real.

Ah, you are right. I read a [not] in there from the context. Since if I could prove God's existence, I would believe that God existed.

[Ted]

It seems to me that the existence of God is a personal issue. One becomes a convinced believer through a personal subjective experience of the divine.

Shalom
Ted

Originally Posted by Ted

It seems to me that the existence of God is a personal issue. One becomes a convinced believer through a personal subjective experience of the divine.

Shalom
Ted

So are you saying the proof then is subjective also? Or just the way in which some one views the truth of God?

[yaaarrrgg]

I agree with Ted, that it's subjective ...

There's a difficulty in trying to construct any kind of empirical test of God ... it will really only be testing a particular idea of God.

For example, there were a couple studies a while back that showed praying for another sick person has no effect on their recovery. But that negative result doesn't prove God is not real, since perhaps the God is more of a deist's God, and doesn't interfere with the process he already set in motion. Also, if the results of experiment went the other way, it likewise wouldn't have proven God's existence either... since it's always possible some other unknown mechanism is at play, that mental focus taps into.

IMO there's one entity we call "the Universe," which is a complex, interdependent process. We can slice out a segment of that process, in our mind, and label it "God" ... or we can chose not to do so. Like making a puzzle out of a photograph, there are no objective rules that determine were the cut lines should be, that demarcate our set of concepts (nouns, repeating events, ...). Two people will cut the picture up differently, into different discrete units ... then rearrange those concepts in their thought processes.

More often than not though, I find myself not necessary "agreeing or disagreeing" with someone, but puzzling over why the lines over reality were drawn the way they were. Not that a different view is necessarily right or wrong; it's usually just from using different concepts as the basic building blocks.

A theist can choose to cut a man-shaped object out of the sky... but asking if it is real ... it depends on your perspective. It's not that it can't be done, but violates a sense of non-arbitrariness in my cutting style.

[gmc]

Originally Posted by BHughesNC

This is a pretty simple question for those who do not believe in God. Can you name an event or situation that would prove to you beyond a doubt that God is real?

Bobby

Speaking as an unbeliever-well agnostic anyway- (which to some of the faithful means I am really an atheist and to atheists means I am really a believer but I worry about neither of them because they are both irrational).

I would have to say no. It's a kind of catch twenty two situation. If I could imagine an event or situation that would prove the existence of god then I must accept that he, she , it exists. If I don't believe then there is nothing that will convince me otherwise just as a true believer can't really conceive of there being no god so there is no event or situation they can think of would convince them god doesn't exist.

[Ted]

jester

I am saying that one comes to accept the reality of God through a subjective experience of the Divine. That is enough proof for the individual. One needs no more. It is often called the experiential reality of God. The idea of concept of God is beyond logic or rationalism every bit as much as our ability to understand the real essence of God. What we see on earth are God's activities. We do not see God.

Shalom
Ted

[gmc]

Originally Posted by Ted

jester

I am saying that one comes to accept the reality of God through a subjective experience of the Divine. That is enough proof for the individual. One needs no more. It is often called the experiential reality of God. The idea of concept of God is beyond logic or rationalism every bit as much as our ability to understand the real essence of God. What we see on earth are God's activities. We do not see God.

Shalom
Ted

Just out of curiosity why, in your opinion, do so many believers feel the need to force others to share their beliefs? Conversion and control by terror has all to often been the choice of the unco good.

[Accountable]

Originally Posted by gmc

Just out of curiosity why, in your opinion, do so many believers feel the need to force others to share their beliefs? Conversion and control by terror has all to often been the choice of the unco good.

I don't know unco good, but the most 'activist' types see a dictate in the Bible. Paraphrased "Go out all over the world and spread the good news."

Add one part belief that if you're not Christian (especially a particular brand of Christian) you go to Hell

Combine both ingredients in one head. Shake well. Bake in fire & brimstone at 1400 degrees until a golden crust forms.

[gmc]

Originally Posted by Accountable

I don't know unco good, but the most 'activist' types see a dictate in the Bible. Paraphrased "Go out all over the world and spread the good news."

Add one part belief that if you're not Christian (especially a particular brand of Christian) you go to Hell

Combine both ingredients in one head. Shake well. Bake in fire & brimstone at 1400 degrees until a golden crust forms.

sorry, unco guid-old scots term for the self righteous.

So you men they're all full of half baked ideas?

[Redtail]

I've had so many God moments in my life, there's no doubt in my mind there is one. Call it God or a Higher Power, how could I possibly believe the things on this earth and beyond were not made by a power greater than myself? I don't believe in coincidences........it's a cop out word for God's actions. Having seen life unfold from in a matter of minutes or days or years the way they have, beyond anything I could have ever dreamed, I have no doubt there is a God who is so much wiser and sees the way so much clearer than I. My spiritual experiences I've had, alone, with just me and God present, are all the proof I need to have faith and trust in God. Faith without works is dead.