Fundamentalism

[Ted]

Fundamentalism is to be found in all of the great faiths of the world. It is a very dangerous position as can be seen by Islamic terrorists or Sikh terrorists or those within Christendom that call for the assassination of presidents or shoot abortion doctors or call for the execution of folks like gays and the handicap. Such an approach could even lead to a world conflagration when some leader decides to hasten the "second coming" by instigating a nuclear war.

Shalom
Ted

[gmc]

Originally Posted by Ted

Fundamentalism is to be found in all of the great faiths of the world. It is a very dangerous position as can be seen by Islamic terrorists or Sikh terrorists or those within Christendom that call for the assassination of presidents or shoot abortion doctors or call for the execution of folks like gays and the handicap. Such an approach could even lead to a world conflagration when some leader decides to hasten the "second coming" by instigating a nuclear war.

Shalom
Ted

So are you worried about GW Bush?

Originally Posted by Ted

Fundamentalism is to be found in all of the great faiths of the world. It is a very dangerous position as can be seen by Islamic terrorists or Sikh terrorists or those within Christendom that call for the assassination of presidents or shoot abortion doctors or call for the execution of folks like gays and the handicap. Such an approach could even lead to a world conflagration when some leader decides to hasten the "second coming" by instigating a nuclear war.

Shalom
Ted

The kind of 'fundamenatalism' you discribed isnt religious at all and it certainly isnt 'Christain', it is self serving, ungodly and a by product of greed, lust and unbrideled pride.

It is carnal, and based on the natural inclinations of man and has nothing to do with God at all.

It isnt 'fundamentalism' (even as you dsicribed it) that can lead to world distruction, it is merely natural man that will destroy the world... labeling it 'fundamentalism' is simply your way of promoting your pluralist view over those who oppose you. You loosly use the term to include those groups who do not advocate for all those thing yet hold fast to a stricter interpretation of the bible than you hold.

You ought to more carefully discribe the term before you use it so arbitrarily.

[Ted]

gmc

Yes, I am worried about GWB and any successor that might be supported by the Christian right. After all Robertson one called for the assassination of President Chevez of Venezuela. Then one listens to the likes of the late Falwell etc.

There are those who would love to hasten what they believe to be the "last days".

Shalom
Ted

[Ted]

jester

Good to see you back. I wondered what you were doing.

Having spent a great deal of time studying this particular issue I can say no I am not misusing the term.

It is fine for anyone to say they are not true Christians. That is a judgment call. These people believe they are and that someone like me is from the non-existent Satan. Many of the 22 000 Christian denominations around the world think they are the only ones who have it right. The reconstructionists believe they are true Christians.

The American right wing, the moral majority as they are known are part of this group. It also appears to me that GWB is part of or certainly close to this group. These folks hold a great deal of power in America and they are dangerous.

DrJ has been pointing out some of this in his very accurate comments though I cannot comment on much of what he says as I do not live in the US. That being said scholars and many other ordinary people are referring to America as the new Roman Empire. All such empires were evil in many ways and eventually collapsed.

It has absolutely nothing to do with what I believe. It has everything to do with accurate observation. Some take the Bible literally and are fine Christian people. Others take it literally and are very dangerous people.

Shalom
Ted

Originally Posted by Ted

jester

Good to see you back. I wondered what you were doing.

Having spent a great deal of time studying this particular issue I can say no I am not misusing the term.

It is fine for anyone to say they are not true Christians. That is a judgment call. These people believe they are and that someone like me is from the non-existent Satan. Many of the 22 000 Christian denominations around the world think they are the only ones who have it right. The reconstructionists believe they are true Christians.

The American right wing, the moral majority as they are known are part of this group. It also appears to me that GWB is part of or certainly close to this group. These folks hold a great deal of power in America and they are dangerous.

DrJ has been pointing out some of this in his very accurate comments though I cannot comment on much of what he says as I do not live in the US. That being said scholars and many other ordinary people are referring to America as the new Roman Empire. All such empires were evil in many ways and eventually collapsed.

It has absolutely nothing to do with what I believe. It has everything to do with accurate observation. Some take the Bible literally and are fine Christian people. Others take it literally and are very dangerous people.

Shalom
Ted

If you have a quote from Jerry Falwell stateing any of the stuff you mentioned negatively in your OP, I'd like a link and a quote, otherwise don't include his name amongst those you mentioned, he was nothing like Robertson.

The US is nothing like the roman empire, thats a bunch of malarchy, and US christianity is so weak theres no way anybody can claim to have sway enough to influence the government of the US. The greatest influence on the US right now is from the neo-athiestic ideology that has swept in, in the past 50 years, it's called humanism, its loosly based on a religious order called selfishness.

The 'fundamentalism' in the US that your refering to (aside from you collecting Mr Falwell in that group) is a non issue. In fact the groups your refering to that do have a minor roll in politics dont claim fundamentalism at all, they are neochristianity... the are nondenominational mega churches with 'feel good' messages very loosly based on biblical principles and largly based a mix of mainline modern pshychology and basic biblical ideology that typically do not quote specific texts.

I think you picked a few whackos out of a news hat and tied them to legitimate chirstinity and it dont fly with me.

You swung, you missed, care to try again?


Answer me this then, if 'christians' (fundamental or not) had any sort of power or influence in american politcs then why is abortion still very legal in the US?

And thanks for the re-welcome, very nice of you, I have been very very busy with my buisiness and new property, Just too much to do.

[Ted]

jester

"The US is not like the Roman empire." I would most strongly disagree. What is the difference between putting Herod into power and putting Saddam into power? The US supports China which is communist but decries Cuba which was ruled by a corrupt dictator Batista, supported by the US, who was defeated by Castro. That is pure hypocrisy. I could list dozens of others but have already done so elsewhere. Who put the Taliban in Power? Who supported a dictator named Sharrif in Pakistan? Why the intense interest in the past in getting rid of Daniel Ellsberg? Was someone actually afraid of the truth.

The American supreme court has declared Guantanamo prison illegal but it still exists. The American empire refuses to join the world court. I wonder why? Once again are they afraid of the truth coming out?

Roman imperial theology was peace through victory. American imperial theology is exactly the same "peace through victory.

Jesus program was peace through justice and not peace through victory.


In ancient Rome the rich lorded it over the poor and stacked the cards in their (the rich's) favor. In American the rich lord it over the poor and make sure the laws favor the rich.

Many Americans including American scholars refer to America as an evil empire. This was done as early as the 1830" by a great American poet whose name escapes me at the moment as well as the 1930 by another great American poet.

"Today the income of the richest 225 people in the world is equal to the income of 3 billion poor people" Matthew Fox. Many of these live in the US. Christ came to assist the poor and the disenfranchised that existed in his day. How many Americans are poor, disenfranchised, without any health care, live in poverty or are homeless.? Matthew Fox says quite openly that rural America is "third world".

I heard the news tonight and literally roared with laughter that now that North Korea has handed in a paper it is no longer evil. Unfortunately this is no joke.

As for Robertson, I list Falwell, Phelps etc. in the same category. The Christian right does exert a lot of power and continually want more. It is only time until they do control the government. It is coming unless of course the empire collapses first. I cannot remember specifics from Falwell but have listened to him enough.

We may say that these other churches are not true Christians but that is only the judgment of some. Those other churches indeed believe they are Christians.

Shalom
Ted

[Ted]

jester

For some good information on western Christendom I recommend two books; "A History of Christianity" by Paul Johnson, and "History of Christianity" by Jonathon Hill.

Shalom
Ted

Ted said...
"The US is not like the Roman empire." I would most strongly disagree. What is the difference between putting Herod into power and putting Saddam into power?

The US did not put Saddam in power, the US used its influnce to set about consitions to allow Saddam to get into power himself, we did not conquer Iraq to put him in power, like Rome did to jerusalem to put Herod in power. You can call us guilty of poor judgement, you can call us hypscritical but that does not make us 'Emperial'

The US supports China which is communist but decries Cuba which was ruled by a corrupt dictator Batista, supported by the US, who was defeated by Castro. That is pure hypocrisy.

Fair enough the US policy towards these to nations is hypocritical. That does not make us like the roman empire.

I could list dozens of others but have already done so elsewhere. Who put the Taliban in Power? Who supported a dictator named Sharrif in Pakistan? Why the intense interest in the past in getting rid of Daniel Ellsberg? Was someone actually afraid of the truth.

Its a lto more complicated than all of that... again, its no where near the being emperial...

The American supreme court has declared Guantanamo prison illegal but it still exists.

Give the process some time to work... the final outcome on the supreme courts decision on GTMO takes time to develop...

The American empire refuses to join the world court. I wonder why? Once again are they afraid of the truth coming out?

The world court is a farce and it asks that we destroy our soverningty to join them, no, I'll stay out of a farce court, thank you anyway and you can keep your UN too.

Roman imperial theology was peace through victory. American imperial theology is exactly the same "peace through victory.

America has no 'emperial theology'... we have an ideology that freedom seeks its own governance, if that spreads then so be it.

Jesus program was peace through justice and not peace through victory.

Nope, Jesus nerver promised peace among nations, in fact he said the result of his coming would divide groups, even families. Peace only came through enternal contentment with the right relationship with God.

In ancient Rome the rich lorded it over the poor and stacked the cards in their (the rich's) favor. In American the rich lord it over the poor and make sure the laws favor the rich.

I dont agree here either, although to some extent your right, but here in the US the opportunity to become one of the wealthy isnt taken away from the poor, in fact its welcomed for one so poor to work hard to become wealthy.

Many Americans including American scholars refer to America as an evil empire. This was done as early as the 1830" by a great American poet whose name escapes me at the moment as well as the 1930 by another great American poet.

Well a hundred thousand more amercians would disagree with you and the poet whos name I dont even want to recall.

"Today the income of the richest 225 people in the world is equal to the income of 3 billion poor people" Matthew Fox. Many of these live in the US. Christ came to assist the poor and the disenfranchised that existed in his day. How many Americans are poor, disenfranchised, without any health care, live in poverty or are homeless.? Matthew Fox says quite openly that rural America is "third world".

I grew up in rural america, right smack in the middle of it, to this day I'd prefer that lifestyle to any other, third world? no way, not with the opporutunities available to work out of any third world situation... and you have a warpedsense of Jesus, he never came ot make sure we all have healthcare, or feel liek we belong to a country, or a nation... he came to have a relationship with believers. Matthew fox is wrong, and stupid. and comepltley out of touch and besides all that none of thses things have anything to do with the US being like the roman empire...

I heard the news tonight and literally roared with laughter that now that North Korea has handed in a paper it is no longer evil. Unfortunately this is no joke.

Oh brother... then you listend to some news channel that slanted the story becuse its much more rich than that... North Korea pledge complaince to a 6 nation strategy to keep peace and not arm nuclear weapons, in doing so the US did what they pledged to do as thier part of the 6 nation agreement...

If we were like emperial rome we'd have just conquered them, lobbed a few nukes over thier and wipped them off the face of the earth, then in 50 years went and took control of thier land... Rome didnt exactly run a multinational diplomatic agreement in order to control another nation.

As for Robertson, I list Falwell, Phelps etc. in the same category. The Christian right does exert a lot of power and continually want more. It is only time until they do control the government. It is coming unless of course the empire collapses first. I cannot remember specifics from Falwell but have listened to him enough.

You have no right lumping Falwell in with the rest of those men, you posted no actual quotes that are similar, and you used one legitimat man (falwell) to falsly attacj decent fundamentalist christians, you did it deliberatly, to give legitimacy to your argument and its a lie.

If your going to lump Mr Falwell in with Phelps/Robertson then quote what it is Mr Falwell said, or leave his name and those who agree with him out of your little anti-american tiraid.

We may say that these other churches are not true Christians but that is only the judgment of some. Those other churches indeed believe they are Christians.

Ah so it is ok to judge true christians by the ones who obviously dont follow true christanity? I'll assueme then it is ok to judge all pluralists by the groups who dont hold true pluralism (if that exisists), or hey maybe its ok to judge all Muslums by the actions of only the militant ones?

Originally Posted by Ted

jester

For some good information on western Christendom I recommend two books; "A History of Christianity" by Paul Johnson, and "History of Christianity" by Jonathon Hill.

Shalom
Ted

Ted I read part of Karen Armstrongs book as you suggested. Its a lie from the beginning to where I read to, about 6 chapters. I stopped reading it. It's so full of her 'guesses' as to what happened historically and her suppositions of what must have happened and what the bible says based on her guess work that I couldn't stomach anymore fasle ideologies.

Sorry I dont think I'll take anymore of your advice on book reading...