Does Religion Breed Ignorance?

[Chookie]

Originally Posted by Clodhopper

I have very little information on what happened in the "missing" 300 odd years. They are called "The Dark Ages" for a reason!

Ireland never had a "Dark Age", in fact that was the period of Irelands' "Golden Age".

Originally Posted by Clodhopper

Basically the British tribes such as the Brigante and the Belgae were pushed into Wales and Cornwall and the Angles, Saxons and Jutes settled, sometimes intermarrying, sometimes wiping out the native inhabitants.

That's a bit simplistic, The Brigantes occupied north-east England (what became the kingdom of Northumbia). The Belgae held the Devon/Dorset area, so they were pretty near being in Cornwall anyway.

Originally Posted by Clodhopper

No-one had much time for keeping written records, they were trying to stay alive.

Besides, they were essentially pre-literate (not illiterate) societies.

Originally Posted by Clodhopper

And not only writing! They preserved Latin as the common tongue of Europe, which gave access to the great Romans like Tacitus or Virgil, they preserved Greek in some places, Roman Law and some basic maths

Tacitus? Great?? On your point about "some basic maths" - Stonehenge - to take one example - wasn't built with "basic maths".

Originally Posted by Clodhopper

Because the Church was Pan-European, knowledge could move around geographically through the Church.

I'll disagree seriously here. The Church wasn't Pan-European. Christianity was, but it was also wide-spread around the Mediterranean/ North Africa/ East Asia.

[OpenMind]

Religion is like a devout form of nazi politics.

[Clodhopper]

Ireland never had a "Dark Age", in fact that was the period of Irelands' "Golden Age".

I heard the Vikings did a pretty fair job of Ireland a few hundred years later, and the Celtic Church was losing influence to the Roman at this time. Dating of Easter a big issue, and the Celtic Church lost the argument.

That's a bit simplistic, The Brigantes occupied north-east England (what became the kingdom of Northumbia). The Belgae held the Devon/Dorset area, so they were pretty near being in Cornwall anyway.

That's bit picky isn't it? I was trying to give a quick flavour of what was going on, and you're having a go at me for being about right?

Besides, they were essentially pre-literate (not illiterate) societies.

Agreed. Runes excepted. Knowledge of writing therefore held by the Church...

Tacitus? Great??

Can't help it if you prefer Ovid!

On your point about "some basic maths" - Stonehenge - to take one example - wasn't built with "basic maths".

Granted. But they weren't trying to build Stonehenge while their culture was collapsing around them with the withdrawal of the Legions and Saxon raids and settlement. They were trying to stay alive.

I'll disagree seriously here. The Church wasn't Pan-European. Christianity was, but it was also wide-spread around the Mediterranean/ North Africa/ East Asia.

It was pan European enough that Hadrian - described by Bede as based in a monastery near Naples but of African race - and Theodore - described as from Cilicia - were sent to England in 668 AD. I grant you I was loose in my definition of Europe but I think it is fair to note that the Catholic Church had a wide and enduring reach to be able to transfer personnel between such diverse locations (I think I recall Theodore being based in N.Africa at this time, not Cilicia, though I'm not 100% sure about that, but there were certainly concerns about him introducing "Greek heresies" )

[Daniyal]

Originally Posted by Amber Sun

I am in total agreement with all of this Daniyal. A very good thread.

Thankyou very much

[Lon]

I think Ignorance Breeds Religion rather than Religion Breeding Ignorance.

[Clodhopper]

Lon: Nicely put: whole viewpoint in a nutshell!

[Daniyal]

Belief & Believe" are two of the most deceptive words in religion. Belief is ignorance. Belief is to ignore the facts, intentionally or ignorantly. If one has to believe, it means he or she does not know, and if one does not know, that is ignorance. Anyone can believe anything and this means that a person can believe, and be 100% wrong. But knowledge is knowing and knowledge is correct information. "To know" gives one confidence, but belief infers doubt. To believe is to accept things that you do don't know .Either you know or you don't. Once you know - then you no longer have to believe and belief is the fuel of most religions.


A - Ask ( Psalms 2 ; 8 , Matthew 21 ; 22 , Mark 6 ; 22 , 1John 3 ; 22 , 1 John 5 ; 15
S - Seek ( Psalms 27 ; 4 , 1Chr 28 ; 9 , 2Chr 34 ; 4 , Romans 3 ; 11 )
K - Knock ( Revelation 3 ; 20 )

[Clodhopper]

Belief & Believe" are two of the most deceptive words in religion. Belief is ignorance. Belief is to ignore the facts, intentionally or ignorantly. If one has to believe, it means he or she does not know, and if one does not know, that is ignorance. Anyone can believe anything and this means that a person can believe, and be 100% wrong. But knowledge is knowing and knowledge is correct information. "To know" gives one confidence, but belief infers doubt. To believe is to accept things that you do don't know .Either you know or you don't. Once you know - then you no longer have to believe and belief is the fuel of most religions.

It is also possible to believe you know, and be completely wrong, because some fact you base your certainty on is not quite as you think it, and your logic perhaps not as secure as you believe it. Belief is also a state that occurs after the facts have been studied or the experience analysed; but can also involve an awareness that there may be other data which may prove one wrong - provisional belief.

"Certainty" all too often becomes the "state of the closed mind."

[Daniyal]

Originally Posted by Clodhopper

It is also possible to believe you know, and be completely wrong, because some fact you base your certainty on is not quite as you think it, and your logic perhaps not as secure as you believe it. Belief is also a state that occurs after the facts have been studied or the experience analysed; but can also involve an awareness that there may be other data which may prove one wrong - provisional belief.

"Certainty" all too often becomes the "state of the closed mind."

Coming From A Person Who Have As Of Yet Proven Anything I Have Post To Be Wrong . < clodhooper = To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity > Like I Said You Need My ( Ok ) To Make Yourself Whole . That's Why You Keep Following Me Around . English / England < What A Joke > If Only I Could Write A Post About You So-call His -Story And Not Get A Warning . We'll See Who Closed Minded / Brainwash . I Must Have Really Hit A Nerve For You Feel The Need To Impress Me .


I See You Down There You Got It Bad Don't You ?

[Clodhopper]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodhopper
It is also possible to believe you know, and be completely wrong, because some fact you base your certainty on is not quite as you think it, and your logic perhaps not as secure as you believe it. Belief is also a state that occurs after the facts have been studied or the experience analysed; but can also involve an awareness that there may be other data which may prove one wrong - provisional belief.

"Certainty" all too often becomes the "state of the closed mind."


Coming From A Person Who Have As Of Yet Proven Anything I Have Post To Be Wrong . < clodhooper = To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity > Like I Said You Need My ( Ok ) To Make Yourself Whole . That's Why You Keep Following Me Around . English / England < What A Joke > If Only I Could Write A Post About You So-call His -Story And Not Get A Warning . We'll See Who Closed Minded / Brainwash . I Must Have Really Hit A Nerve For You Feel The Need To Impress Me .

No analysis. No engagement. No sign of ability to do so. Interestingly, the "advice" I'm confidently offered, eg "To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity" is the advice that should be aken by the writer. It is also interesting that the writer operates almost entirely in cliche or slogan, as above, or "belief is ignorance" below. Pretty sounding, good for shouting at a demo, but at best a massive simplification. Like "overmind".

Belief may be ignorant of facts, but you then go on as though that is an absolute proven truth. Maybe it is, but you haven't demonstrated it:

"If one has to believe, it means he or she does not know, and if one does not know, that is ignorance".

Knowledge and belief are not exclusive. They are part of the same process: I know the Normans are claimed to have invaded England in the year 1066 AD in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. I believe that claim to be true because other documentary sources also date the invasion to that time.

In fact all knowledge is just belief: Belief that the study of the raw material and other available data has led to correct conclusions. The honest mind ALWAYS knows the possibility of error is there, somewhere. For example, in the case of the Norman Invasion it is possible that the documentary sources were in error for some reason as yet unknown. It is not likely, but the possibility exists.

It's one of the main reasons I'm so suspicious of what you write - this irrational certainty. The faulty logic (see your quotation above, which starts "If one has to believe..."), the unsubstantiated statements treated as proven fact - as in the Desire Security one above.

It's all just slogans cobbled together. Sorry.

Not that I fool myself you're likely to engage constructively with this, but I can't walk by without at least offering a lifeline.