" Quran . Vs . Bible ". Vs . Science

[Abram Is Muslim]

Originally Posted by spot

The bible texts you quoted were all composed before the first experimental measurements were made by the Greeks. The Babylonians thought the earth was flat too, I expect the bible's cosmology was deeply influenced by the time in exile there.

So You are saying that the Bible isnt the word of God , and its just made by men.

Originally Posted by spot

The Greeks had a heliocentric universe model, first offered by Aristarchus of Samos in the same decade that the first experimental measurement of the Earth's diameter was published 2250 years ago. That doesn't address where the centre of the universe is located but it steps beyond the contemporary Earth-centred model.

Are you saying the Quran moves beyond heliocentricity as far as assuming the centre of the universe to be elsewhere than within the solar system? I'd be interested to see the relevant verse.

Are there other universes ?

Though humanity gas reached a respectable degree of knowledge , they did not got every thind and many secrets are there unlocked .

God says in the holy Quran what means "Then praise be to Allah, Lord of the heavens and Lords of the earth, the Lord of the Worlds. And unto Him (alone) belongeth majesty in the heavens and the earth, and He is the Mighty, the Wise.( AL-Gathya 36-37)

"Praise be to Allah " is translation of " Al-Hamd li Allah " , this what Moslems' tongue repeats in the their prayers , at least repeated seventeen times in 24 hours .The early Moslem explainers gave an interpretation to the word (the worlds ) that reflects their broadmindedness as we will show . Our universe ,that is immensely large and in complete state of harmony has a diameter of 30,000 light year ( to understand this huge number , imagine that you travel at the speed of light (300,000 km per second ) , it will take you 30 milliards years to reach the furthest point in the universe .

Astrophysics scientists are completely preoccupied with the query " is there a another different world other than that lies in our circle of perception; what the dimensions of the universe are , if they are existent ..though we don't see them ….but most likely they are there as we don't see all that are remaining there and we can't see every entity .

God says what means " And unto Him (alone) belongeth majesty in the heavens and the earth, and He is the Mighty, the Wise. That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger."( Al-Haka :38-39). Scientists are of the opinion that our universe might be a thin layer in the whole of the universe .
The opinions of the early exegetes

• AL-Kourtby says , in his collection of Quran exegesis , say that the exegetes areof different opinion concerning the quranic word " THE WORLDS"
  
• Katada , an early Quran exegete , says the" Al-alameen , rendered in English " worlds " refers to all that are here or there other than God and it is always plural .
  
• The son of Ibn Abas says that the word refers to both humans and jinnee , so it is plural .
  
• Wahab Ibn Monaba says that God has created eighteen thousand worlds and that our world is one of them .
  
• Saed Al-Khodary says that God has created forty thousand worlds and the whole of the earth , including all the creatures are one of them .

So many tantalizing queries about the possibility of the existence of other worldshave already been surfaced among scientific circles .

Among these questions are :

• Are there any other worlds governed by laws different from that which govern our world ?
  
• Where does the light travel faster than its known speed ?
  
• Where can we find the power of gravitystronger than that we know ?
  
• Where can we find the nuclear bonds less strong than that we know ?
  
• Where can we find electrons less in charge than that we know ?
  
• Where can we find universe different from ours ?
  
• Where can we find world without all the known chemical elements -except Hydrogen and helium- than that we know .
  
• Where can we find a universe without stars ?
  
• Where can we find that atoms that contain the anti-protons and the anti-neutrons whish go round the Positron?
  
• Where can time recede back ?
  
• Where can all powers be unified ?

A lot of scientists think that there are universes other than ours , among those are Max Tugmart , Goal Kremier , Susan Wealze and David Hoytawes . The twin of our galaxy , 10 28 meters away from us ,is among these models that scientists predict its existence .

Max Tugmart says that the parallel universes are not just fictions , they are applications based on our cosmological studies .

The Malkuth between Quran and Science

What really astonished me is that I found the holy Quran words always in scientists mind when trying to express something fully especially the word " Malkuth " , which is originally Arabic word that was repeated several times in the Holy Quran .

John G. Cramer wrote: "Gene Wolfe has suggested that if our own universe is not all of Creation! But only one bubble out of many in the stream of Time, then calling it "The Universe" is no longer sufficient. We need a Name for it. He suggested "Malkuth", which is the Cabbalist name for "world". But I find Malkuth rather unappealing; it sounds too much like "uncouth" and would give completely the wrong impression of our Universe to an outsider".

If he knew that the word is mentioned in the Holy , he would not describe it as a harsh word , I wish he had heard the word in the Holy Quran and fully understood it .

God says in the Holy Quran what means"Have they not considered the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and what things Allah hath created, and that it may be that their own term draweth nigh? In what fact after this will they believe? ( Al-Araf:185)

Also God says in the Holy Quran what means"Say: In Whose hand is the dominion over all things and He protecteth, while against Him there is no protection, if ye have knowledge?( AL-Moenoun :88)Therefor glory be to Him in Whose hand is the dominion over all things! Unto Him ye will be brought back.( Yasin :83)

Suzanne Willis discussed the topic of parallel universe that dates back to the very beginning of universe and said that the universes may be separated according to the separated theories in two important ways :the first way happened in the stage of the huge inflation of the universe in which a small part of the universe was expanded so large (figure 1) and it is possible that other parts in the universe did the same thing and developed giving other worlds . In the shade of the other way and according to quantum theory the parallel universes had come into being because of Quantum event .

Max Tugmark has delved into the theories of physics which is concerned with the parallel universes which are classified into four levels that can allow continuous variations . the following are levels of the of the parallel universes :

• The fist level : worlds that are governed by the same physics and the constants of our world physics yet the development of its material might be different
  
• The second level of different physics constants and time dimensions from that we have in our universe.
  
• The third level : every quantummay lead various copies.
  
• The fourth level : has it own different laws of physics.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Abram Is Muslim

So You are saying that the Bible isnt the word of God , and its just made by men.

I'd have thought that was so obviously true it doesn't need saying. In the sense in which fundamentalists use the word God - or Allah - there is no God. It's why you referred to "the writers of the Bible".

[Abram Is Muslim]

Is the Universe Static...........??


Big bang gives or interprets how the universe begins , it is the most widely accepted theory that explain how the universe began . It had given a strong blow to atheism . The fact of big bang is explained clearly in the Holy Quran . The Holy Quran has many characteristics , it addresses every generation , every person ,it rebuts every atheistic claim of every age ....

What is the Big Bang....??

The Big Bang Model is a broadly accepted theory for the origin and evolution of our universe. It postulates that 12 to 14 billion years ago, the portion of the universe we can see today was only a few millimeters across. It has since expanded from this hot dense state into the vast and much cooler cosmos we currently inhabit. We can see remnants of this hot dense matter as the now very cold cosmic microwave background radiation which still pervades the universe and is visible to microwave detectors as a uniform glow across the entire sky.


Does the Holy Quran mention the Big Bang ?

Allah says in the Holy Quran what means "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth Were joined together (sewn together) (as one Unit of Creation and then We unstitched (clove them ) and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not believe? (Qur'an, 21:30) "

The verse says clearly that the facts about the creation of the universe will be discovered by the unbelievers , these facts were actually discovered by non-Moslems . Moreover the verse calls the atheists to rethink again over their unsubstantiated claim .

The Holy Quran uses just two words to sum up all what have been written to describe the Big Bang ; the Arabic word "ratq" (rendered in English "sewn ") means "mixed in each or blended" . It is used to refer to the state of the universe before being exploded . The Quranic word ( Ratek ) is what referred to in modern science as " one mass "

The phrase "we unstitched" , that is ,"fataqa" in Arabic implies that something comes into being by tearing apart or destroying the structure of things that are sewn to one another. The word is used to describe the beginning of creation in the Holy Quran ; it is ,along with all its implication , is in conformity with the meanings of the Big Bang .

In other words , when we think about the first moments of the Big Bang, we see that the entire matter of the universe was collected at one single point. In other words, everything-including "the heavens and earth" which were not created yet were in an interwoven and inseparable condition. Then, this point exploded violently, causing its matter to disunite.

Unlike the meanings of the big bang , the Quranic words denote system , wisdom , creativity while the words Big Bang , a term invented by scientists , implies random chaos . So now the Holy Quran , in the question of theism . gives the proof that the universe is not eternal and is in conformity with astrophysics . A book like this , revealed in a time when the best knowledge a bout universe proved to be superstition , gives accurate precise facts that are scientifically and widely accepted . It also gives credence to the prophet-hood of Mohummed , who was unlettered and neither could he read or could he write . If that prophet was imposter or counterfeiter , how dare he indulge himself in matters that don't concern the people of his age .

Here you can understand the miraculous use of the word in the Holy Quran , Allah says in the Holy Quran what means " Say: if the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid. ( AL-Kahf:109)

Allah says in the Holy Quran what means" And if all the trees on earth were pens and the Ocean (were ink), with seven Oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the Words of Allahbe exhausted (in the writing): for Allahis Exalted in power, full of Wisdom. ( Lokman :27)
The birth of the heaven and the earth in the Holy Quran is in conformity with science

[Abram Is Muslim]

Originally Posted by spot

I'd have thought that was so obviously true it doesn't need saying. In the sense in which fundamentalists use the word God - or Allah - there is no God. It's why you referred to "the writers of the Bible".

There is a God created whole that world , and left the evidence for You and me to know that he created it,and left us the proofs in holy book sent 1400 years ago

[spot]

Originally Posted by Abram Is Muslim

There is a God created whole that world , and left the evidence for You and me to know that he created it,and left us the proofs in holy book sent 1400 years ago

You will excuse me if I merely note in the thread at this point that I find that entirely unlikely. If I eventually discover it to be true I'll be extremely angry with Him.

[Abram Is Muslim]

Originally Posted by spot

You will excuse me if I merely note in the thread at this point that I find that entirely unlikely. If I eventually discover it to be true I'll be extremely angry with Him.

And what make You Angry with who created You and Creat that whole world...?

[spot]

Originally Posted by Abram Is Muslim

And what make You Angry with who created You and Creat that whole world...?

If such a God existed? The total lack of basic humanity such a God would have shown throughout recorded history, given the dreadful things which happen to innocent people which He could avoid if He were as you describe Him to be. The devastated lives of the innocent would a millstone round His neck and a complete condemnation of His moral sense. He would by definition be a devil, not a God, if He existed.

[Abram Is Muslim]

Originally Posted by spot

If such a God existed? The total lack of basic humanity such a God would have shown throughout recorded history, given the dreadful things which happen to innocent people which He could avoid if He were as you describe Him to be. The devastated lives of the innocent would a millstone round His neck and a complete condemnation of His moral sense. He would by definition be a devil, not a God, if He existed.

At first , the God talk to You about his existence through the Quran saying,

I made them not to witness the creation of the heavens and the earth, nor their own creation; nor choose I misleaders for (My) helpers. (Quran 18:51)

Doth not man remember that We created him before, when he was naught? (Quran 19:67)

Or were they created out of naught? Or are they the creators? (35) Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they are sure of nothing! (Quran 52:36)

Who hath created seven heavens in harmony. Thou (Muhammad) canst see no fault in the Beneficent One's creation; then look again: Canst thou see any rifts? (Quran 67:3)

And we will discuss all of the evidence through Quran proving the existence of God ,who creat the whole universe ,and left the evidence in Quran, sure we believe in the Bible,but we believe that it was altred,aswe may discuss later.

And now talking about your second point ...Is God unjustice.....?? (And sure God isnt)

And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.30 And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful. (31) They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise. (32) He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide. (33) And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever. (34) (Quran 2:30-34)

And starting from that moment the troubles appeared between the Satan"the devil" , and the man,God created the man in a special Image and with his owen hands, but the Satan refused to listen to God , and from that moment the devil wanted to do its best to keep the man away from God......

And We said: O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and eat ye freely (of the fruits) thereof where ye will; but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers. (35) But Satan caused them to deflect therefrom and expelled them from the (happy) state in which they were; and We said: Fall down, one of you a foe unto the other! There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a time. (36) Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful. (37) (Quran 2:35-37)

And the Satan won in making the first man "Adams and his wife Eva" fall in the sin , and they fall in the test, and ate from the tree, but because God love us,the humanity, he forgave Adams , and made him another test, he promised him,to let him live a short life on the earth, and God will takehis soul,and judge him,and the same with all the humanity, and the good will be in heaven ,and the bad in hell.

We said: Go down, all of you, from hence; but verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (38) But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein. (Quran2: 38-39)

God created us with the ability to choice between the good and bad,Our life is full of pleasures, Angels for exampls are created without the ability to pick between good and bad , they just do what God order them to do , they dont have the pleasures we have , they cant marry , make love ,eat ,nor play .

We got all of that , by having the ability to pick our owen descitions,and because the picking gives two results,picking the good or the bad , God made the rewards for those who follow the straight path , and be helpful for the huminity , and the hell for those who make the others suffer ...

If You been good and helpful in that life, You gonna have eternal life in the Other life,You will have all your pleasures for free , you will marry the good woman you loved or married in that life ,You wont get old and die , you will live among the best of the humninty , the persons who were good to the others and helpful.

while the Ones who made us suffer, will stay in helpp forever, next to the Satan , they picked him over God ,while he cant give them nothing at all , because he created nothing.

God gave us complete ability to pick between the good and bad , and we,our selvies, are the ones who pick the wrong path and hurt our selvies , and make the others suffer.

Do you think if you drunk wine , and went home hitting your wife , its God's mistake, sure its yours , he told you (Never touch wine) , but you went and drunk it, so its your owen mistake that you came over God's teachings and got drunk,why then God created the wine from begining....??

The wine, like the knife ,like everything , it may be useful or hurtful , it depends on our use of it , the wine be used in medical stuff also , and its like a test for us , just like the tree was for Adams .

God has a plan always for everything.

He said: O my people! Serve Allah, Ye have no other God save Him. He brought you forth from the earth and hath made you husband it. So ask forgiveness of Him and turn unto Him repentant. Lo! my Lord is Nigh, Responsive. (Quran 11:

Let me tell You a lil story , the farmes wanted to get ride of the birds eating their farm every season, but after the got rid of the birds, the worms ate their farm, they didnt know that the birds were the ones eating the worms,and getting rid of it.


God gave us complete ability in making our descitions , that option is great and valueable , but some dont understand it,that picking option give us a great pleasure in creating our life,can you imagine your self a robot just perfoming given codes....!!!

What pleasure will be in your life...??

You will be just doing what you have been programmed to do....!! What pleasure in that...!!

Yeah the picking option give us a great pleasure , but at the same time it put a great responsabilities over us , we should be careful in making our discition and pick between the good and bad,and be responsable for the results.

God gave us that compelete ability in picking, but at the judgement day we will be judged and all our descitions will be judged.

Starving is every where in the world,
Can you imagine the people living on the mountains waiting for the sky to rain hotdog.

He it is Who hath made you regents in the earth; so he who disbelieveth, his disbelief be on his own head. Their disbelief increaseth for the disbelievers, in their Lord's sight, naught save abhorrence. Their disbelief increaseth for the disbelievers naught save loss. (Quran 35:39)

God wanted us to change our selvies, just to start , and he will change our life into the best.

Allah changeth not the condition of a folk until they (first) change that which is in their hearts; and if Allah willeth misfortune for a folk there is none that can repel it, nor have they a defender beside Him. (Quran 13:11)

Can You imagine the people not doing anything in their life,and just waiting the sky to move...what life is that, and what test is that.

God wanted us to learn working and he give us a hand to change our life , not waiting the sky to rain.

And about the wars....the man make the wars , and make the others suffer,do you want the sky to come and fight for us...!!!,God asked us to fight against the unjustice ,God asked us to fight and he will give us a hand.

For example after the big lie of 119 , American went to occupy Afghanistan to be near from Russia(the cold war never stop), but till now , America( the strongest Army ever) cant get rid of some Muslims with guns there, but defending their freedom...You know why ....!!

Because God support them and give them a hand.

Allah changeth not the condition of a folk until they (first) change that which is in their hearts; and if Allah willeth misfortune for a folk there is none that can repel it, nor have they a defender beside Him. (Quran 13:11)

God teach us how to live , by giving us the right path ,and letting us to start the first step to change.

The last thing,death and suffering in that life, becuase of the unjustice and racist people and organisation , is nothing next to this pain , those devil will have in the second life, suffering in that life is a test, and as much as we suffer,as much as our Patience is valuable.

[Abram Is Muslim]

Whr r u spot?

[spot]

Originally Posted by Abram Is Muslim

Whr r u spot?

I didn't have anything to add to what we'd said. I'd only be repeating myself. We've each put our point of view. Everyone coming into the thread for the next few years will be able to make their own mind up on the basis of our posts here. What else could I say that would help the thread to progress? I've claimed that any all-powerful creator God is by definition both evil and diabolical, you've denied it. You rely on divinely written scriptures, I've said they have human authorship. You rely on belief, I rely on experience and logic. I don't think either of us will persuade the other but I do think the thread might be useful to some readers who come in here in the future.

I'm quite happy to continue discussing it though, if you like. I just didn't see what more I could post that would be constructive.