The Islamic History Of Europe

[Abram Is Muslim]

Originally Posted by gmc

You make the assumption you are telling us things we don't already know. Did you look at the links I posted? Who knows without the viking connection perhaps the islamic empires would have failed. It was European warriors not arab ones that stopped the mongols and helped make Egypt what it is today.

You live in a country that has a distinct culture and identity courtesy of Christians taken from their homes by force. Perhaps you should stop kidding yourself islamic civilisation has a claim to the moral high ground-a hubris you seem only too ready to accuse Christians of. It's the clash of cultures and the sharing of ideas that allow for progress. It works both ways, if you want people to listen and read your posts you need to reciprocate.

You share one thing in common with Christians-you assume someone who is not religious is unaware or hasn't thought about it and just needs to find god and their particular religion has all the right answers. The reality is very different.

I hate explaining the facts, anyways , look friend,

The Battle of Ain Jalut took place on 3 September 1260 between the Egyptian Mamluks and the Mongols in Palestine, in the Jezreel Valley.

This battle is considered by many historians to be of great macro-historical importance, as it marked the highwater point of Mongol conquests, and the first time they had ever been decisively defeated. After previous defeats, the Mongols had always returned and avenged the loss, but after the Battle of Ain Jalut they were unable to do so. The Mongol Ilkhanate leader Hulagu Khan was not able to advance into Egypt, and the Khanate he established in Persia was only able to defeat the Mamluks once in subsequent expeditions, briefly reoccupying Syria and parts of Palestine for a few months in 1300.

In 1260, Hulagu sent envoys to Qutuz in Cairo, demanding his surrender:

“ From the King of Kings of the East and West, the Great Khan. To Qutuz the Mamluk, who fled to escape our swords. You should think of what happened to other countries and submit to us. You have heard how we have conquered a vast empire and have purified the earth of the disorders that tainted it. We have conquered vast areas, massacring all the people. You cannot escape from the terror of our armies. Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations. Only those who beg our protection will be safe. Hasten your reply before the fire of war is kindled. Resist and you will suffer the most terrible catastrophes. We will shatter your mosques and reveal the weakness of your God and then we will kill your children and your old men together. At present you are the only enemy against whom we have to march.

Qutuz responded, however, by killing the envoys and displaying their heads on Bab Zuweila, one of the gates of Cairo.

The power dynamic then changed due to the death of the Great Khan Mongke, requiring Hulagu and other senior Mongols to return home to decide upon his successor. A potential Great Khan, Hulagu took the majority of his army with him, and left a much smaller force, only around one or two tumens (10,000-20,000 men) under his best general, the Nestorian Christian Turk[3] Kitbuqa Noyan.

In late August, Kitbuqa's forces proceeded south from their base at Baalbek, passing to the east of Lake Tiberias through Palestine.

The Mamluk Sultan Qutuz at that time allied with a fellow Mamluk, Baibars, who wanted to defend Islam after the Mongols captured Damascus and most of Bilad al-Sham.

The Mongols, for their part, attempted to form a Franco-Mongol alliance with (or at least, demand the submission of) the remnant of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, now centered on Acre, but Pope Alexander IV had forbidden this. Tensions between Franks and Mongols had also increased when Julian of Sidon caused an incident which resulted in the death of one of Kitbuqa's grandsons. Angered, Kitbuqa had sacked Sidon. The Barons of Acre, contacted by the Mongols, had also been approached by the Mamluks, seeking military assistance against the Mongols
Though the Mamluks were the traditional enemies of the Franks, the Barons of Acre recognized the Mongols as the more immediate menace, and so the Crusaders opted for a position of cautious neutrality between the two forces[read ^ Morgan, p. 137.]. In an unusual move, they agreed that the Egyptian Mamluks could march north through the Crusader territories unmolested, and even camp to resupply near Acre. When news arrived that the Mongols had crossed the Jordan River, Sultan Qutuz and his forces then proceeded southeast toward the spring at Ain Jalut in the Jezreel Valley[read a b Bartlett, p. 253 ].

The Europians were servants under the great mongolic power that time,

Bohn, Henry G. (1848) The Road to Knowledge of the Return of Kings, Chronicles of the Crusades, AMS Press, New York, 1969 edition, a translation of Chronicles of the Crusades : being contemporary narratives of the crusade of Richard Coeur de Lion by Richard of Devizes and Geoffrey de Vinsauf and of the crusade of St. Louis, by Lord John de Joinville.

Amitai-Preiss, Reuven (1995). Mongols and Mamluks: The Mamluk-Ilkhanid War, 1260-1281. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge. ISBN 978-0521462266.


And sure modern Egypt has Europian roots in its culutre, and that started in 17th century, and Im proud of that,that what I call culture complimenting ,not conflicting, but still have my comment about what Europe did in its occuption to the east , specially what Itali did in Libya,and what England did by whole Africa.
we can disucss that...
I wish You get the facts friend, and Im here talking about complimenting not conflicting ,I wish You get my intetations well..

[spot]

Originally Posted by AussiePam

What is amazing to me, gmc, is that when religion became totally dominant - and I'm not referring to one religion more than another here - scholarship and learning declined, or rather was diverted into the minutiae of scriptural interpretation and legalistic trivialities

Oh come now - a lot of the ancient greek texts only exist today because of the schools in the Islamic world which rescued them. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the scholars of that era and you can scarcely say it wasn't religion-dominated at the time. Just look at the sources relied on in Latin translations of the 12th century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The BBC Documentary Series. "Physicist Jim Al-Khalili travels" which was just mentioned goes into the topic thoroughly, I enjoyed watching that.

[chonsigirl]

Originally Posted by spot

Oh come now - a lot of the ancient greek texts only exist today because of the schools in the Islamic world which rescued them. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the scholars of that era and you can scarcely say it wasn't religion-dominated at the time. Just look at the sources relied on in Latin translations of the 12th century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The BBC Documentary Series. "Physicist Jim Al-Khalili travels" which was just mentioned goes into the topic thoroughly, I enjoyed watching that.

Yes, that is true. All those ancient texts were translated again, and the Renaissance began in Europe.

[gmc]

Originally Posted by Abram Is Muslim

I hate explaining the facts, anyways , look friend,

The Battle of Ain Jalut took place on 3 September 1260 between the Egyptian Mamluks and the Mongols in Palestine, in the Jezreel Valley.

This battle is considered by many historians to be of great macro-historical importance, as it marked the highwater point of Mongol conquests, and the first time they had ever been decisively defeated. After previous defeats, the Mongols had always returned and avenged the loss, but after the Battle of Ain Jalut they were unable to do so. The Mongol Ilkhanate leader Hulagu Khan was not able to advance into Egypt, and the Khanate he established in Persia was only able to defeat the Mamluks once in subsequent expeditions, briefly reoccupying Syria and parts of Palestine for a few months in 1300.

In 1260, Hulagu sent envoys to Qutuz in Cairo, demanding his surrender:

---

And sure modern Egypt has Europian roots in its culutre, and that started in 17th century, and Im proud of that,that what I call culture complimenting ,not conflicting, but still have my comment about what Europe did in its occuption to the east , specially what Itali did in Libya,and what England did by whole Africa.
we can disucss that...
I wish You get the facts friend, and Im here talking about complimenting not conflicting ,I wish You get my intetations well..

If you'd bothered reading that link you'd have realised I was referencing that battle and pointing out the origins of the mameluks. It would have saved you posting all that. I was trying to make the point that islamic civilisation is on no position to claim the moral high ground any more than western civilisation. Your nation owes much to the descendants of children taken as slaves from europe-in the case of the mamelukes a lot of them were sold by the mongols to the arabs which has a certain irony considering who stopped their advance in to the middle east.

I'm also quite well aware of the european history of empire as probably are most of the poster on this forum. You seem to be under the impression You are telling us something we didn't know. You also seem not to appreciate that muslims also have a history of empire building every bit as bloody as the europeans. You are hardly innocent victims in all of this.

[Abram Is Muslim]

Originally Posted by gmc

If you'd bothered reading that link you'd have realised I was referencing that battle and pointing out the origins of the mameluks. It would have saved you posting all that. I was trying to make the point that islamic civilisation is on no position to claim the moral high ground any more than western civilisation. Your nation owes much to the descendants of children taken as slaves from europe-in the case of the mamelukes a lot of them were sold by the mongols to the arabs which has a certain irony considering who stopped their advance in to the middle east.

I'm also quite well aware of the european history of empire as probably are most of the poster on this forum. You seem to be under the impression You are telling us something we didn't know. You also seem not to appreciate that muslims also have a history of empire building every bit as bloody as the europeans. You are hardly innocent victims in all of this.

give One one Civiliations raised up well perfectly morally....?? You wont find Pagans of Greeks, Pharoahs, Jews , Christians, Neither Muslims.

You know Why....??

Because the civlizations are based on persons, and the persons or the human being is full of mistakes, while the teachings and prinicipals of cutlures can be discussed , but the for the persons , they change the path of the cultures to a wrong path.

Anyways the point of the thread was to show the compliment of the cultures , and you sudden moved it into theconflict between them.

Yes the Islamic civilization passed hard times, under corrupted leaders, but it last for ages great under great leaders, the same being applied over the Jewish , Christian and the Athiesm civilzation now...

You already now after the role of the church was limited in Europe , You know what Europe did by the East and how much they make it suffer....millions was killed because of that Athiesm civilation, so Lets say no civilization is perfect, but the teachings and principals , can be discussed...

[AussiePam]

Originally Posted by spot

Oh come now - a lot of the ancient greek texts only exist today because of the schools in the Islamic world which rescued them. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the scholars of that era and you can scarcely say it wasn't religion-dominated at the time. Just look at the sources relied on in Latin translations of the 12th century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The BBC Documentary Series. "Physicist Jim Al-Khalili travels" which was just mentioned goes into the topic thoroughly, I enjoyed watching that.

I'm not disputing the massive contribution to the world from the islamic world of the middle ages. I am lamenting what happens when totalitarian religion of any kind takes over - anywhere. Thought you might actually be with me on this one...

[spot]

Originally Posted by AussiePam

I'm not disputing the massive contribution to the world from the islamic world of the middle ages. I am lamenting what happens when totalitarian religion of any kind takes over - anywhere. Thought you might actually be with me on this one...

What you actually wrote was "when religion became totally dominant - and I'm not referring to one religion more than another here - scholarship and learning declined" which fits rather better with my response than with your comment, surely.

[AussiePam]

No.

[spot]

Originally Posted by AussiePam

No.

Director! Decision needed over here...

[Clodhopper]

Thinkers living in Islamic cultures gave Europeans eg the concept of zero. Thinkers living in Christian cultures gave Muslims eg the concept of germ theory. I'm not clear that either has much to do with religion. What IS certain is that religious wars lead to enormous amounts of death.