Defacing of Bible: Art???

[fuzzywuzzy]

I think you're right . Luther also pushed for the common folk to have their own copies.

[OpenMind]

Originally Posted by fuzzywuzzy

I think you're right . Luther also pushed for the common folk to have their own copies.

I'll see if I can dig out the book for tomorrow.

[G#Gill]

When I was a child, I was always taught to respect property. I was always told that to damage a book, any book, was a dreadful thing to do - all books were valuable in one way or another.

I have always thought that to damage a book was totally wrong, and to deliberately damage or destroy any book was a terrible thing to do. To even consider the mutilation of a religious book in the name of 'art' just shows the perpetrators as being totally ignorant, brainless idiots ! No I am not a religious person, but hopefully, I respect books. I do not respect the people who deliberately mutilate them.

[OpenMind]

Originally Posted by G#Gill

When I was a child, I was always taught to respect property. I was always told that to damage a book, any book, was a dreadful thing to do - all books were valuable in one way or another.

I have always thought that to damage a book was totally wrong, and to deliberately damage or destroy any book was a terrible thing to do. To even consider the mutilation of a religious book in the name of 'art' just shows the perpetrators as being totally ignorant, brainless idiots ! No I am not a religious person, but hopefully, I respect books. I do not respect the people who deliberately mutilate them.

An interesting point G#. I too was taught not only that it was wrong to damage a book, my 11 year class (at least) was shown how to handle a book - even how to turn the pages. That's always stayed with me and it was a very pertinent lesson in my mind. It helps to preserve a book if it is treated properly.
On the other hand, I have learnt since that books have often been written in. For instance, researchers and students will write notes into the margins. The Bible was no different and I believe that the Concordance developed because of the copious notes written into the Bible's margins. Again, I will have to find my book to confirm this and I will try and look for it today to confirm an earlier post I made on this thread.
From what I can tell from the news article, the exhibitors never expected anything more than this. Definitely not the offensive comments they did find written.

[gmc]

Originally Posted by Bill Sikes

And what a judgement *that* is. Why is it that every time anyone mentions religion, you're up 'n' at em, especially Christians, but also others, as shown in this thread. You've a real thing about it, haven't you. I'm beginning to wonder whether you were chased around the belfry by a priest, and tolled off.

Well why shouldn't I-If Christians can be passionate about their beliefs why can't a free thinker? Especially when it is the I am holier than thou brigade that seem to believe no one should have or be able to express any measure of disbelief.

As it happens most of the posters on here are christian so yes most comments are aimed at Christians. I will quite happily discourse with Muslims as well. I view it as a generic debate so any comments are not aimed at any particular individual unless I am addressing a particular point such as the one you just asked.

Why is it many religious people cannot discuss religion without producing the argument that

1)You are disrespecting my beliefs
2)expecting the bible to be taken as the unquestioned word of god and quoting bits out of it as if that settles everything
3)non-believer should not be allowed to comment at all on religious topics.

I was brought up in the free church of scotland-(also known as the smile and the devil get in brigade) we don't have priests appointed in the same way as the catholic or episcopalian church. When I was seven they built a new school for the catholics children-suddenly many of my friends were going to a separate school because of their religion-I remember asking if that meant they weren't christian.

Six months later fights between the proddies and the papes were a regular occurrence between children that didn't really understand what it was all about.

Left alone children might fight but generally they will end up getting along very well together. Religion takes children and teaches them that other children who do not believe as they do or who have a different lifestyle are not quite right and it's OK to be hostile and not like them.

Recently near me they were trying to get a joint catholic/protestant secondary school. All in the same classes but separate for religious education. Fine except that on of the parties was insisting on separate entrances for each religion and separate cloakrooms. Even the kids think it ridiculous. You couldn't make this stuff up and now we have Muslims demanding separate schools and wanting to keep their children away from british children in case they become "contaminated" and the girls especially start getting the idea they can choose their own husbands and boyfriends. Religious bigotry and hatred perpetuated by adults and they get away with it in the name of religious freedom as they demand we be tolerant of their religion and treat it with respect.

If these people are so upset about the bible being defaced why are they not equally outraged and spurned to action by the religious bigotry at old firm games?

You are right I do have a real thing about religion. But not because of abuse by a priest (people makes jokes about that yet anyone else perpetrating such acts would be lynched and no parent or figure of authority would accuse their child of lying) I regard it as a baleful influence and while I don't care what people choose to believe-I have friends and acquaintances right across the religious spectrum even a few of the new age religion followers. (interesting question, if new age shaman are just con men are not christian priests just the same in different robes? Try asking that the next time you hear a christian-or muslim making fun of new age religion. Just be ready to duck) I don't share their belief but that isn't a problem, it becomes one when religion claims for itself a special status that means no one should criticise or object when they claim special privileges for themselves and their followers.

I also find the beliefs themselves absurd and the more I study and read the less of a believer I have become and can articulate why better. But i decided it was a load of rubbish a long time ago. In the Scottish church you elect to become a full member at age sixteen, I chose not to. I was baptised when I was not allowed an opinion-so that makes me a christian doesn't it? Seems in some quarters being an atheist or agnostic should just not be allowed.

Actually you might find this discussion of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DKhc...E46A0E&index=0

[mikeinie]

By calling something ‘Art’ is it then a free ticket to do whatever you want to? If this is a true artist wanting to push the limits, then I suggest that he continues his ‘art’ and his next display should be in Jerusalem, where he can invite the public to come and write all over the Torah.
Then how about a trip to Saudi Arabia where he can invite Muslims to write all over the Koran? Then on to other countries to deface their ‘holy books’ as well? How long do you think he would be alive?? Again I ask, how did the Catholic religion become so weak, and open for mockery?

Yes there are some terrible things that have been done by those in the church, in Ireland a report has just been issued about child abuse in the Catholic institutions during the years when the church practically ran this country, it is horrific. But you can be sure that the same things are happening elsewhere but just not uncovered yet.

Even with this however, does it still make it OK to tear up and stuff a bra with the pages from the same book in which even the president of the United States swears his oath upon?

People have mentioned respect for things… I agree, every book that we have ever bought in our house is still in good shape. When done with a book, I wouldn’t even throw one out, I would pass it on, or leave it somewhere for others to read. Sometimes in hotel lobbies you can leave books you are finished with for other travelers to read, I have often done this on trips when done with a book.

I think that the art exhibition was wrong, disrespectful, and in no way can be considered ‘art’.

[OpenMind]

May I applaud you, GMC, for the way you have responded to a personal and derogatory comment which, of itself, did not make any contribution to the thread's subject matter.

[gmc]

In the interest of balance

YouTube - THE NEW WORLD ORDER ON GOD TV DECEMBER 5TH ONWARDS

Yes folks I do occasionally watch god TV and no doubt I will now be accused of being disrespectful about religion.

Posted by openmind

May I applaud you, GMC, for the way you have responded to a personal and derogatory comment which, of itself, did not make any contribution to the thread's subject matter.

I don't think Bill Sikes was being derogatory and I didn't find it offensive. Not being religious I do not equate someone disagreeing with me or asking what I am playing at as being a personal attack. He's right I do like discussing religion and politics. There is no point being on a discussion forum unless it is to discuss things with people whose attitudes and beliefs you do not share. At least that is my viewpoint.

[mikeinie]

Originally Posted by gmc

In the interest of balance

YouTube - THE NEW WORLD ORDER ON GOD TV DECEMBER 5TH ONWARDS

Yes folks I do occasionally watch god TV and no doubt I will now be accused of being disrespectful about religion.

The world is always just about to end isn’t it? Why do people always need to be afraid of something??

[OpenMind]

Originally Posted by mikeinie

By calling something ‘Art’ is it then a free ticket to do whatever you want to? If this is a true artist wanting to push the limits, then I suggest that he continues his ‘art’ and his next display should be in Jerusalem, where he can invite the public to come and write all over the Torah.
Then how about a trip to Saudi Arabia where he can invite Muslims to write all over the Koran? Then on to other countries to deface their ‘holy books’ as well? How long do you think he would be alive?? Again I ask, how did the Catholic religion become so weak, and open for mockery?

Yes there are some terrible things that have been done by those in the church, in Ireland a report has just been issued about child abuse in the Catholic institutions during the years when the church practically ran this country, it is horrific. But you can be sure that the same things are happening elsewhere but just not uncovered yet.

Even with this however, does it still make it OK to tear up and stuff a bra with the pages from the same book in which even the president of the United States swears his oath upon?

People have mentioned respect for things… I agree, every book that we have ever bought in our house is still in good shape. When done with a book, I wouldn’t even throw one out, I would pass it on, or leave it somewhere for others to read. Sometimes in hotel lobbies you can leave books you are finished with for other travelers to read, I have often done this on trips when done with a book.

I think that the art exhibition was wrong, disrespectful, and in no way can be considered ‘art’.

Yes, I think that this can be described as art. Art does have a wide vocabulary. However, I think that the exhibitors were naive to not allow for the pernicious nature of many members of the general public. If the exhibition had been held in a more appropriate setting, they would have more likely obtained the results they wanted - a church fete for instance.
Let me point out that the Bible is one of millions of other copies of the original transcripts which are not available for this kind of treatment. The content may be sacred but the book itself is not.
Art is evocative and at its best will evoke a wide spectrum of responses from the viewing masses. many do not understand, let alone appreciate Cubism, but it is still art.

Yet, in one way, the exhibition has been successful. Insofar as it evoked a response from the general public, albeit highly negative, the church can learn something from this as to why it is spurned by so many.