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Thread: Religious and Political mindsets, and Cultism - A somewhat general discussion

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    Religious and Political mindsets, and Cultism - A somewhat general discussion

    This conversation started in another thread, but this seems to be getting a little broader than the scope of the original thread, so I thought maybe we could make this a more generalized thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    Well, I certainly don't take credit for that.
    Even though you posted it? Oh, the irony! I didn't think you would own up to it, you hardly ever do and I expect why you insist on being as vague as you often are.
    I forget that you are a literalist. Sorry. So, OK, I did say that. I merely meant to say that the idea was not mine to own. It was an observation, based on what others far more studied than myself have stated and published.
    What you seem to perceive as "vagueness" is just kind of the way I was trying to start a conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    I merely took off with what you had written earlier.
    Either you're admitting to trolling or not taking responsibility by saying that your error is my fault? I doubt you even understood what I had posted before that.
    I didn't think that it was an error, and was not offering to lay blame on anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    Of course the whole thing circles back to that collective memory and knowledge where a group of individuals seem to share a particular collection of ideas and memories.
    That's called cult-thinking, and what I've been pointing out throughout these threads. Go on...
    Yes, my point. The process itself is common Human behavior. We all have our collective mindset, but many of us will fall victim to the darker aspects of a particular view. Sometimes the differences are in who defines the cults.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    And people tend to pool their opinions and beliefs into some sort of joint experience.
    My point exactly
    AH! Then we are actually in agreement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    From that experience they can then determine what is reality.
    So you're a member as well.
    A member of what, exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    But is their reality valid for others who have been a part of a different collective experience?
    Reality isn't negotiable. The world isn't flat, and because any group of people want to insist it is does not change that fact.
    True enough. But, unlike some folks around here, I don't claim to know all the details. I am just another observer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    You can reject the experience of other people and stick to that reality which you have chosen, but that does not necessarily invalidate the others' perception of reality.
    Insisting on cult-like groupthink as reality? Really?
    Well, it seems to depend upon which group you claim membership in.

    More (not so) random thoughts. (Pre-Coffee musings)

    I was merely gathering comments from various conversations about how the human mind works.

    You have arrived at your world view from gathering knowledge from other people, and from your own experiences, and drawn your unique view of the universe. Is that not so?
    You accept the ideas some people have expressed, and reject others, based upon the world view you have compiled.
    That seems to be the way the mind works. Most of us are capable of revising our world/universe view as new data arrives and is compiled and qualified.
    A lot of people like to discuss their views and to receive information from others'to compare notes, and test their views with peers to see how those views stand up to the perspectives of those around them.
    Many (read most) people, though, will decide that their view is fine just the way it is, and will reject any further input that does not coincide with their particular view of the universe.
    Others seem to believe that their view is the only view, and that in expressing them they are sharing the true idea which others will immediately recongnize as the "Truth." Those folks can get rather testy when their ideas are not only not accepted, but even criticized and rejected. These people will often fall back to defend their view by attacking the views of others who disagree.
    I know many people who are quite brilliant and very logical in their thinking.
    However my kinship with them is often tested when I hear them espouse ideas that seem to me terribly ill-informed and illogical. I wonder "How did they hell they come up with THAT?!?!?"

    I am sure that they sometimes think the same thing about me.
    Two people can be presented with exactly the same collection of information from the exact same source, and derive nearly polar opposite conclusions.
    I am sure that you have seen that on occasion. Yes?
    To what do you attribute that phenomenon?
    It may not be so much that I've conceded your point as that you just can't hear me rolling my eyes.

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    Re: Religious and Political mindsets, and Cultism - A somewhat general discussion

    Your entire argument rests squarely on an equivocation of reality. Reality is not a state of mind, it is a state of factual occurrence. To say that anyone can live in a lala land in their head and call that reality is so far afoul of the word reality it's staggering. What a person in any state of mind outside of reality is is delusional to a degree depending on the severity of the delusion and absence of what is, in fact, real.

    Is that too literal for you?

    Equivocation is perhaps the most often fallacy religious or spiritual people fall into.

    ETA: Also, the only reason I can think of for "political" to be a part of the title of this discussion is to try to justify the fallacy further, because it does not belong in this thread.

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    Re: Religious and Political mindsets, and Cultism - A somewhat general discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    Your entire argument rests squarely on an equivocation of reality. Reality is not a state of mind, it is a state of factual occurrence. To say that anyone can live in a lala land in their head and call that reality is so far afoul of the word reality it's staggering. What a person in any state of mind outside of reality is is delusional to a degree depending on the severity of the delusion and absence of what is, in fact, real.

    Is that too literal for you?

    Equivocation is perhaps the most often fallacy religious or spiritual people fall into.

    ETA: Also, the only reason I can think of for "political" to be a part of the title of this discussion is to try to justify the fallacy further, because it does not belong in this thread.
    There is your "literalist" viewpoint, again. Reality is a given. true.

    The thing is, the human mental state is not necessarily set in reality. Certainly, the physical existence in which we find ourselves is the reality. We cannot step off a 14 story building and expect any outcome other than a rather messy end to our existence as a living organism. And we all benefit from the laws of physics. Those are established fact.

    But Humans find ways of transcending the physical reality that we perceive. For example, there are people who can step off that 14-story building, and find all sorts of handholds, and footholds, that will allow them to find their way to the ground below in a perfectly intact and healthy state of being. For them reality holds a completely different meaning than we can comprehend. Their perception of reality is far more granular than ours.

    I am talking about the perception of that reality. And for some, perception IS the reality.

    And Politics, for some is no more rooted in that reality than religion.
    It may not be so much that I've conceded your point as that you just can't hear me rolling my eyes.

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    Re: Religious and Political mindsets, and Cultism - A somewhat general discussion

    No matter how many ways you try to rephrase it or examples you conjure up it's still an equivocation and typical of a cult mindset.

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    Re: Religious and Political mindsets, and Cultism - A somewhat general discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    No matter how many ways you try to rephrase it or examples you conjure up it's still an equivocation and typical of a cult mindset.
    You're proving my point.
    It may not be so much that I've conceded your point as that you just can't hear me rolling my eyes.

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    Re: Religious and Political mindsets, and Cultism - A somewhat general discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    Two people can be presented with exactly the same collection of information from the exact same source, and derive nearly polar opposite conclusions.
    I am sure that you have seen that on occasion.
    I think this happened between me and Byrn.

    The Red Tent

    Posts #15, #21, #25,

    For all practical purpose, we were both discussing the same facts. I had other things to say but saw no reason to press the subject.

    Let it be.
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    A woman drove me to drink and I didn’t even have the decency to thank her. - W. C. Fields

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    Re: Religious and Political mindsets, and Cultism - A somewhat general discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    You're proving my point.
    Not really! Equvocation has no point other than to try to justify itself. You're insisting delusion, which you appear to have defined as perspective, is reality. It appears you've now added caution to the list (your example above). This conversation has no place to go when words have any meaning applied to them at all.

    Have you met Kelly Ann Conway?

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    Re: Religious and Political mindsets, and Cultism - A somewhat general discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    I think this happened between me and Byrn.

    The Red Tent

    Posts #15, #21, #25,

    For all practical purpose, we were both discussing the same facts. I had other things to say but saw no reason to press the subject.

    Let it be.
    This should certify it for you. If it doesn't, you're really buried deep.

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    Re: Religious and Political mindsets, and Cultism - A somewhat general discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    This should certify it for you. If it doesn't, you're really buried deep.
    We never did agree on the same information presented.
    What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? - W. C. Fields

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    Re: Religious and Political mindsets, and Cultism - A somewhat general discussion

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    I am not a part of any group, I walk alone in my views. I kind of grew tired of the group thinking, and I wanted to think for myself. Because I found myself disagreeing with the collective so much. So I left the hive and I fly alone.

    And I have found peace in my solitude.

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