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Thread: 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'

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    Re: 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'

    Spot, the ideology is already there. Its how we measure when the pendulum swings too far. Its why the French are worried about Le Pen. I havent singled out any leader, but to deny an ideology excists in the minds of some of these leaders is wrong. Usually when we think of facism we think of Italy or Spain..... but their esculation of facism happened quickly and under conditions that favoured a populist view resulting in a political system that still has the remnants today.
    For the world today? We're seeing a slow creep toward the same kind of systems. Passively, but its there.

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    Re: 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    Let's start at the beginning. Fascists run one-party systems and lock up any active opposition. Neither President Trump nor Ms May does this.

    What aspect of their behavior is fascist?
    They don't need to lock them up they just need to silence them or prevent them campaigning effectively and shut up any criticism as unpatriotic and ignoring the will of the people to use one of their phrases. Theresa may is making a power grab if she succeeds it will takes years to shift the tories. Political debate consists of those on the right shouting down theor opponenmts. talking over them creating straw men arguments (like with nicola sturgeopn suppoosedly calling for a referendum now when she didn't ) or personal attacks. Donald trump is already attacking the press and trying to silence them now it seems he has his eye on the constitition.

    Donald Trump slams 'archaic' US constitution that is 'really bad' for the country | The Independent

    Bear in mind he sacked an attorney general who stood up to him and the managed to get a high court judge appointed by changing the rules.

    This might help clarify things a bit. First trawl off the internet but there ar plenty of sources on the subject.

    The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism

    1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
    2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
    3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

    4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
    5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
    6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
    7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
    8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed
    to the government's policies or actions.
    9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
    10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
    11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
    12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
    13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
    14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

    OK maybe not 14 but you tell me which if any of the above do not apply in the uk and the US. Just have a look at some of the policues the tories want to bring in, overturning the human rights act, undoing all the environmental and health and safety protection that have been of sduch a benefit. Donald trump has killed off the epa and is anti science the christian right is busy destroying women's rights to control theor own bodies and make decsions as to pregnancy etc etc.

    I'm not suggesting thersa may or donald trunp want to be dictators but they are following an agenda that has gone long way to destroy liberal democracy but hey they are both strong and stable leaders what can possibly go wrong.

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    Re: 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'

    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    OK maybe not 14 but you tell me which if any of the above do not apply in the uk and the US.
    It's a magnificent list. The list is an eye-opener. Now I know what you're using the word Fascism to describe.

    If the word you use to describe the list doesn't discriminate then what use is it - it just becomes a hate-word.

    Name me one government in either the US or the UK from the last - let's say 30 years? 40 years? - which doesn't tick all those boxes.

    Then tell me why you're trying to single out President Trump or Ms May by using it.
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    Re: 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    It's a magnificent list. The list is an eye-opener. Now I know what you're using the word Fascism to describe.

    If the word you use to describe the list doesn't discriminate then what use is it - it just becomes a hate-word.

    Name me one government in either the US or the UK from the last - let's say 30 years? 40 years? - which doesn't tick all those boxes.

    Then tell me why you're trying to single out President Trump or Ms May by using it.
    I wouldn't make the attempt. The battle between left and right or if you prefer between thiose who would take all the wealth and power and everybody else has been going on since man first climbed down from the trees in one form or another. A hundred years ago there was a war fought by a populace that had no say in how theior countries were run you could make a good case that one of the reasons the left is so weakened is in creating the welfare state, getting the vote for all free education they actually achieved all their main goals - once you arrive where do you go? Now we no longer have universal free education with access for all and the welfare state in in the proceeds of being privatised - started by new labour ironically enough they In are emasculated and losing ground to a resurgent right.

    I could also point out areas and times when governments in the us and uk have been less fascist than others but I just wouldn't make the attempt. The gulf between rich and poor powerful anmd powerless is bigger than at almost any time in history.

    I would subgle out theresa may for the simple reason I happen to live in the UK (have a look at turkey) and trump becauyse what he does when it comes to foreign policy is likely to affect me eventually.

    Just have a look at theresa may. She has less than a third of the voters supporting her but clearly suffers from the delusion she can unite the country, denegrates human rights now describes those who oppose her as unpatriotic and is banging a jingoistic drum not noticing she only has a twig to hit it with - oh and by the way to show how tough she is she is willing to use nuclear weapons in a pre-emptive strike not to mention the courts are the enemies of the state.

    Look at trump - now the constitution needs changin cos it stops him just doing what he wants and the judiciary are the free press are enemies of the people amd the media traitors. Of course god is on his side as well.

    I'm surprised you find the list an eye opener it's hardly new stuff anyone with a basic grasp of history shpu;d be familiar with it.

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    Re: 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'

    You've not touched on my point that no US or UK government in the last 30 to 40 years has behaved differently on any of those 14 points. Singling out just President Trump or Ms May can't be justified.


    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    I'm surprised you find the list an eye opener it's hardly new stuff anyone with a basic grasp of history shpu;d be familiar with it.
    I'm familiar with it, I just don't think it defines Fascism. The list is birdshot, Fascism is a bullet. Nobody could mistake today's US or UK for the Third Reich, they are totally different. Go and ask anyone who lived through a concentration camp whether a 2017 detention center is comparable. Using the inaccurate label Fascism just lets the present day bastards off the hook of their own wickedness.
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    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

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    Re: 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    You've not touched on my point that no US or UK government in the last 30 to 40 years has behaved differently on any of those 14 points. Singling out just President Trump or Ms May can't be justified.



    I'm familiar with it, I just don't think it defines Fascism. The list is birdshot, Fascism is a bullet. Nobody could mistake today's US or UK for the Third Reich, they are totally different. Go and ask anyone who lived through a concentration camp whether a 2017 detention center is comparable. Using the inaccurate label Fascism just lets the present day bastards off the hook of their own wickedness.
    Yes I did.

    I wouldn't make the attempt.
    I happen to agree with you that the list could be applied to just about any government of the uk and us in the last thirty years.

    The third reich didn't just spring in to existence there was a lead up to it and I wasn't trying to define fascism rather pointing out some of the characteristics of it - nazism is an offshoot of fascism and the two differ in many ways the most obvious one nazism emphasised racial superiority to a far greater extent. Arguably trump is more a nazi than a fascist.

    I would contend that we are in danger of a right wing fascist takeover of our country and the US is in a mess as well though I suspect they have more chance of fending it off than we do. You don't have to agree with me indeed I wish you would offer a counter argument. Cheer me up spot.

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    Re: 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'

    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    They don't need to lock them up they just need to silence them or prevent them campaigning effectively and shut up any criticism as unpatriotic and ignoring the will of the people to use one of their phrases. Theresa may is making a power grab if she succeeds it will takes years to shift the tories. Political debate consists of those on the right shouting down theor opponenmts. talking over them creating straw men arguments (like with nicola sturgeopn suppoosedly calling for a referendum now when she didn't ) or personal attacks. Donald trump is already attacking the press and trying to silence them now it seems he has his eye on the constitition.

    Donald Trump slams 'archaic' US constitution that is 'really bad' for the country | The Independent

    Bear in mind he sacked an attorney general who stood up to him and the managed to get a high court judge appointed by changing the rules.

    This might help clarify things a bit. First trawl off the internet but there ar plenty of sources on the subject.

    The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
    Wow I have five examples of each just for my country. That's not to say that my government is a facist regeme. But it's caught out quite frequently on at least those points mentioned above.
    Spot. Putting 'Government' as a single celled entity instead of a widespread all engulfing wave of ideology is wrong.

    Just on the point of the Nazis..... Nazis didn't call themselves nazis ..... we called them that. They called themselves nationalist socialists. Found this to be quite interesting and why we should keep our eye on the ball. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Nazi

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    Re: 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    You've not touched on my point that no US or UK government in the last 30 to 40 years has behaved differently on any of those 14 points. Singling out just President Trump or Ms May can't be justified.



    I'm familiar with it, I just don't think it defines Fascism. The list is birdshot, Fascism is a bullet. Nobody could mistake today's US or UK for the Third Reich, they are totally different. Go and ask anyone who lived through a concentration camp whether a 2017 detention center is comparable. Using the inaccurate label Fascism just lets the present day bastards off the hook of their own wickedness.
    I'm surprised you compare concentration camp with a detention centre.

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    Re: 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'

    ooooh I looooove Channel 4 right now!! Can't wait for Sunday

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    Re: 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'

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    I have not read the book but I'm presently reading "Bonhoeffer" by Texan Mataxas. It is a very good description of fascism from inside. If Le Pen had won I would have expected the swastikato be flying over France. Trump is , in my view, another fascist out fofor supreme power. The pendulum is swinging back "right".

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