UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

[Tombstone]

There is so much I can write about this. I'm really quite curious about what the opinion is from our longtime true friends in the UK.

The British government has completely stripped away any defense capability from her citizens.

In addition, their legislation makes everyone a criminal. Next will be a ban on screwdrivers, sharpened pencils, scissors, clippers, and safety pins.

Take a minute to read this article:

http://www.mises.org/misesreview_detail.asp?control=215

Take note of paragraph 3 and 4. Amazing. The police acknowledge that American burglars overwhelmingly prefer empty houses while in England, Canada, and Australia they enter houses at will, not caring if anyone is home.

[Tombstone]

Let's criminalize the whole UK society! The UK Government is getting desperate due to the absolutely amazing rise in violent crime in the UK since they outlawed firearms.

It's laughable to think that the criminals will abide by the law. The very people you want armed to ensure a peaceful society are now nothing more than criminal bait.


Criminals 'to face mandatory jail' for carrying a knife By Rajeev Syal
and Patrick Hennessy (Filed: 15/08/2004)

Criminals caught carrying knives will be automatically jailed for at
least two years, under plans being drawn up by the Home Office.

New legislation, to be announced this autumn, will order judges to give
the minimum sentence to anyone carrying a knife with intent to use it
in a criminal act.

The move follows the introduction of the Criminal Justice Act in
January, which imposed a mandatory five-year sentence for possession of
a prohibited firearm.

Proposals for similar legislation against knives follows a rise in the
number of recent stabbings.

David Blunkett, the Home Secretary, asked officials to draw up the
plans after Sir John Stevens, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner,
suggested that the law should be tightened.

A spokesman for Mr Blunkett said: "The Home Secretary is aware of
growing concern about the use of knives. We are actively looking at how
best to deal with this situation through legislation." Sir John,
Britain's most senior police officer, said that he had spoken to Mr
Blunkett about the introduction of a minimum sentence for anyone caught
carrying a sharp weapon.

"Not only do we need to look at the cause, to prevent these people from
carrying these knives, at the same time we need to harden up the
penalties on people carrying knives," he said.

"We already have a five-year mandatory sentence for guns, and that is
an option. He [Mr Blunkett] knows of my opinion . . . They [offenders]
need to be reminded of the fact that they can go to prison for carrying
knives."

Mr Blunkett's decision to tighten the law follows several recent
well-publicised stabbings. lan Pennell, 16, was convicted two weeks ago
for the murder of Luke Walmsley, 14, in a school corridor - an attack
that prompted a public outcry.

Yesterday, two teenagers were charged with the murder of 19-year-old
Sayed Abbas, who was stabbed to death at Hounslow West Underground
station in west London last week.

[Tombstone]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...p?story=552376

I would do it again, says father who stabbed intruder

By Jason Bennetto 17 August 2004

A man who admitted stabbing a suspected burglar with a bread knife to
protect his wife and child is being investigated for assault.
Antonio Caeiro, 33, who said he wounded a 19-year-old intruder at his
home in Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, said yesterday that he would do the
same again to defend his family.

The incident has similarities with the case of Tony Martin, the Norfolk
farmer who was convicted of manslaughter and jailed for shooting dead a
teenage burglar in 1999.

The suspected burglar in this case is being treated in hospital where
he is described as being in a serious, but stable condition. Mr Caeiro,
a pub manager, claimed he stabbed the intruder in the chest and leg
with the 12-inch knife in self defence as they struggled in his kitchen
before the teenager fled.

Mr Caeiro, who is from Portugal, said: "All I was doing was acting in
self defence. This man had entered my home and I felt he might harm me
or my family. Of course I am sorry that he was hurt, but he had no
right to be in my house. If I had to do the same thing again to protect
my family then I would do it.

"I thought he was going to kill me or rape my wife. Anyone in my
position would have done the same thing. I understand why the police
had to arrest me - but I have done anything wrong."

Mr Caeiro claimed he was woken by his 28-year-old wife's screams at 2am
on Saturday when the burglar came into their bedroom.

He said the 6ft tall intruder had pulled away their 14-month-old
daughter's cot from the side of their bed causing the child to fall on
the floor and cry.

Mr Caeiro said: "This man was kneeling at the side of my bed and
started touching the legs of my wife.

"My wife woke up screaming and then I woke up. The man then ran
downstairs and went out through the kitchen door."

Mr Caeiro, who is 5ft 6ins, rang 999 to report the break-in and was
told by police that because the intruder was no-longer believed to be
in the house they would be there in 15 to 30 minutes.

He said: "I looked out into my yard and saw a shadow. I was frightened
and I grabbed the bread knife from a rack because my first thought was
that I had to stop my family being harmed. I opened the back door ...
then this man attacked me with a metal bar.

"He hit me on the shoulder and I was knocked back into the kitchen. The
door opened and the man tried to come inside.

"I stabbed him in the leg and then we ended up fighting and I stabbed
him in the chest.

"We fought for about a minute outside ... then he managed to break away
and run down the alley at the back of my house."

Mr Caeiro said he tried to call the police again, but got no reply. He
then called a friend who alerted police officers who arrived three
minutes later.

The intruder was arrested near by on suspicion of burglary. Police also
arrested Mr Caeiro on suspicion of assault, and later released him on
bail pending further inquiries.

The police will investigate the case and can decide not to charge Mr
Caeiro. Alternatively they can send a file of the evidence to the Crown
Prosecution Service which will decide whether there is a case to answer
and whether it would be in the public interest to prosecute.

Mr Caeiro said he was making arrangements to move to a new home in
Great Yarmouth because he fears reprisal attacks.

The incident is certain to rekindle debate about how far someone can go
to defend their own home, which went to the heart of the case of Tony
Martin. Mr Martin, of Emneth Hungate, near Wisbech, served a three-year
jail sentence for killing 16-year-old Fred Barras and wounding Brendan
Fearon after they broke into his home at Bleak House farmhouse.

[plazul]

While we all believe that we have the right to defend ouselves in this country be advised that zealous prosecutors will try to convict you of a crime if you use a gun in self defense, even in your home.

The only thing you can do if you shoot an unarmed intruder, as I see it, is lie. There may be cases when you could afford to risk holding a formidible intruder at bay until the police arrive but you risk your family's safety if you do. It's a judgement call. And it's too bad that when you have to make that split second decision in the middle of the night that you also have to worry about losing your freedom and going to jail.

[Tombstone]

The argument for me isn't one of "shooting".

It's one of:

1. deterrence
2. leveling of the playing field at a minimum. preferably tilting the favor to the intended victim is my preference. the bad guys usually have a weapon. law-abiding citizens in a gun controlled society do not. these laws benefit the bad guys.
3. self-reliance. it's just a fact that the police are relegated to a mop-up role in many many cases.
4. the basic moral and ethical right of a human being to be able to protect themselves, their children, their spouses, their relatives, their friends.

Notice I put deterrence as #1. Many a bad situation has been diffused and many more have never even been initiated due to the fact that the "criminal" was aware of the deterent capability of his/her intended victim.

Sure, there are *exceptions to this. But when you are dealing with exceptions, all bets are off and the victim usually ends up taking a dirt nap.

[Tombstone]

Originally Posted by Tombstone

The argument for me isn't one of "shooting".

It's one of:

1. deterrence

Notice I put deterrence as #1. Many a bad situation has been diffused and many more have never even been initiated due to the fact that the "criminal" was aware of the deterent capability of his/her intended victim.

Hey! I'm monopolizing my own thread! Here's another snippet:


Virginians who exercise their right to carry guns in public have been criticized — even ridiculed — in recent days by critics on the both sides of the Potomac. But many gun rights advocates, state lawmakers and residents point out that it's much safer to shop, drive or walk along a street in Virginia than in the District, where handguns are banned and police just declared a "crime emergency."
"Criminals don't want to come up against somebody who is willing to protect themselves," said Philip Van Cleave, president of the gun rights group Virginia Citizens Defense League.

Mr. Van Cleave said Virginia also is made safer by people who carry concealed weapons.
"The idea there is the criminals don't know who's carrying a gun," he said. "They don't wish to mess with people much because they don't know who will be able to defend themselves."
Mike Stollenwerk, a Fairfax County resident and a permit holder, said being able to carry a weapon openly gives people a sense of security.

Read more: http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20040...2254-3826r.htm

[illuminati]

Anyone from the UK looking at this thread? I too, would like to know what is really happening there.

Don't be shy - post up!

[plazul]

I used to believe in the deterrence aspect too but with today's drug crazed and sociopathic criminals you can't count on rationality.

More people are carrying now, risking prosecution, because they really fear for their lives. Not in my neck of the woods, but in places like Chicago and Detroit. I actually feel that some good kids might be carrying to protect themselves from violent predators.

Violence has become a way of life for a large subculture in America and that violence is glorified in cinema and the recording industry. I never dreamed we would have so many juvenile murders. And to think that committing a homicide actually raises a kid's social status in gang circles!

My conservative friends want to spend more money on prisons but I think government has a role to play in some sort of reverse social engineering that will undo the mistakes of Sixties social programs and create real opportunities for the underclass. I want to liberate young people from early death and a life that's ruined before it even begins.

Forget gun control. Let's start with birth control.

[illuminati]

Originally Posted by plazul

I used to believe in the deterrence aspect too but with today's drug crazed and sociopathic criminals you can't count on rationality.

Yes, I would agree with Tombstone that this would fall under the exception.

My view is that the *true gun-crazed gang culture is somewhat confined to a few big problematic metro areas. It is easy to get swept up with the belief that "gangstas" are everywhere. Especially easy to think this if you live in L.A., Detroit, Chicago, Philly, and a few other places. Gangsta wannabe's don't count.

My conservative friends want to spend more money on prisons but I think government has a role to play in some sort of reverse social engineering that will undo the mistakes of Sixties social programs and create real opportunities for the underclass. I want to liberate young people from early death and a life that's ruined before it even begins.

Forget gun control. Let's start with birth control.

I vote for education reform.

[Bill Sikes]

> There is so much I can write about this. I'm really quite curious about what
> the opinion is from our longtime true friends in the UK.

It's not a populist issue. It is not important for most people.


> The British government has completely stripped away any defense capability
> from her citizens.

How is that, then?


> In addition, their legislation makes everyone a criminal. Next will be a ban
> on screwdrivers, sharpened pencils, scissors, clippers, and safety pins.

You'll have to explain that one.


> Take a minute to read this article:
>
> http://www.mises.org/misesreview_detail.asp?control=215
>
> Take note of paragraph 3 and 4. Amazing.

Yes, the whole thing seems a distinctly screwy and distorted version of fact.


> The police acknowledge that
> American burglars overwhelmingly prefer empty houses while in England,
> Canada, and Australia they enter houses at will, not caring if anyone is home.

I don't know about the Canada, Australia, or the USA, but in Britain (of
which England is a component) the above statement is inaccurate.