Pivotal Battles

[gmc]

I don't think you can say that there was ONE battle that was pivotal, there were many that made a difference. All the bits are interconnected, for example the the arctic convoys that were crucial in the early days of the eastern front. If we had decided not to keep fighting Russia wouldn't have had that support so maybe Hitler might have got to moscow. You can't really look at things in isolation because that is not the way things happen.

[Scrat]

As I said earlier, campaigns win and lose wars, not battles. This is the one that broke the back of Germany.

There were many battles in the theatres concerned in different places at different times. There is a rule in war that says. "You can lose battles and still win wars, it was done by the Greeks at Thermopolae. You can win all the battles and still lose the war as Napoleon did."

I think that it is easier to look at the question from the standpoint of "campaignes" or series of battles, in Russia the city of Kharkov changed hands 5 times in 3 years. 5 battles fought for the city in 3 years. These battles were part of a larger, year long campaign (summer 1942-summer 1943) called the Donetsk Campaign.
It started in the summer of 1942 with the German Wehrmacht pushing the Russian army into the Don basin, along the Blacksea coast into the Caucasus and by August to the city of Stalingrad. This is the first pivotal battle of the campaign.

Western sources talk about how inept the Russian army was. The retreat from the Don basin was in fact one of the most brilliant retreats in history. The old "grab them by the nose and kick them in the ass" trick and it was executed brilliantly.

They ran from the Don as fast as they could with the german army hot on their heels. Taking their heavy artillery with them, to the other side of the Volga. They then dug holes in Stalingrad and with the help of the artillery bled the german army white until that winter when they encircled the 6th army and destroyed it.

Thru the winter the Russians pushed the Germans back out of the Don to the line roughly Kharkov, Byelgorod, Kursk, Orel, Veliki Luki, Leningrad by the spring 1943. With the BATTLE of Stalingrad the Germans had lost the initiative.

The next battle was Kursk, it was the last chance the Germans had to regain the initiative. The Russians knew that and set a trap. The germans were desperate so they took the bait and got their necks broken. Kursk was the biggest battle on the Eastern front and the conclusion of the Don campaign. The germans could only react to what the growing and more experienced Russian army did from this point onward.

[gmc]

posted by scrat

As I said earlier, campaigns win and lose wars, not battles. This is the one that broke the back of Germany.

Essentially i think we are in agreement, there is no one battle that turned the course of the war, the closest claimant is perhaps Kursk but without everything that led up to it it wouldn't have happened, without the Battle of Britain Hitler wouldn't have had to keep so many aircraft commited to the west or lost so many of his most experienced combat pilots, without the middles east losses there would have been more german aircraft available for the Russian front etc etc


http://www.mgtrust.org/ww2.htm

http://www.mgtrust.org/aao.htm

[Scrat]

I agree GMC. After the battle of Kursk in 1943 the western powers really began to bomb Germany, forcing Germany to keep more of the Luftwaffe over Germany proper. There are many variables here.

It's like what was the best tank?

The Tiger?

The Panther?

The KV-1?

The T-34?

The Sherman?

They all had their strengths and weaknesses, their best and worst forms. A Tiger in a forest was helpless against infantry but dominated on the steppes. The T-34 was helpless at long range against the Tiger but close in the manueverability and powerful gun gave it the edge.


It's really hard to point to anything definite or pivotal.


We "won" the war in Iraq in 19 days in the Battle of Baghdad. Seems no one told the Sunnis or the Mujahadeen that they were beaten.

[john8pies]

Some excellent and interesting posts here.

I`d personally like to hope that just remembering that all
battles and wars led to the death of zillions of humans , and that hopefully there will eventually be no more wars necessary. I don`t hold my breath though!