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Thread: The European influence on Arab events

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    Re: The European influence on Arab events

    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    All that may be true, but the regional boundaries we were discussing were the ones drawn up after WWI that divided the former Ottoman Empire.
    And are still contested to this day ....... long after oil was discovered. That's the point.

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    Re: The European influence on Arab events

    Quote Originally Posted by High Threshold View Post
    And are still contested to this day ....... long after oil was discovered. That's the point.
    Pointless, you mean. We were discussing the way the various countries were formed after the Ottoman Empire was dissolved.
    Your first post suggested that the lines were drawn with oil in mind, but they were done before oil was discovered.
    The perpetrators simply sat down with a map and started drawing lines, to mark out territories in which each of the participants would set up puppet government entities. It is true that after oil was discovered, a few new "Principalities" were formed up, true. But most of the national boundaries are still as they were after the 1920 carving.

    The point being that the partitioning completely ignored traditional Tribal regions and old boundaries, setting up a lot of strife in the future. some of the ones who suffered the worst were Kurds, and Armenians who saw their homelands wiped from the map.
    It may not be so much that I've conceded your point as that you just can't hear me rolling my eyes.

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    Re: The European influence on Arab events

    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    Just a minor point.
    Those lines may not have entirely "arbitrary" as Lawrence put it, but they were drawn long before the world knew about all the oil that was underneath them.
    I suspect that, had the "civilized nations" of the time known about the oil at the end of the war, the lines would have been drawn quite differently.
    I'm afraid you are wrong there.

    Anglo-Persian Oil Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Anglo-Persian Oil Company (APOC) was an English company founded in 1908 following the discovery of a large oil field in Masjed Soleiman, Iran. It was the first company to extract petroleum from Iran. In 1935 APOC was renamed the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (AIOC) and in 1954 it became the British Petroleum Company (BP), one of the antecedents of the modern BP plc.
    ANGLO-PERSIAN OIL COMPANY – Encyclopaedia Iranica

    Oil fired naval ships were the latest innovations in the late 1800 and early 1900's. The royal navy needed the oil what more justufication did an emperial power need? The french germans and amricans were at it as well. The war in the african desert in ww2 was all about who controlled the oil. Your starter for ten in what year did the US and UK invade Iran together?

    While the influence of european imperialism was arguably baleful don't forget the region was part of the ottoman empire for far longer, the suppression if nationalism was as muh due to them as anybody else - come to that it's not europeans sending in troops to kurdish aras in turkey. Turkey becoming an islamic state hopefully won't happen.

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    Re: The European influence on Arab events

    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    I'm afraid you are wrong there.

    Anglo-Persian Oil Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    ANGLO-PERSIAN OIL COMPANY – Encyclopaedia Iranica

    Oil fired naval ships were the latest innovations in the late 1800 and early 1900's. The royal navy needed the oil what more justufication did an emperial power need? The french germans and amricans were at it as well. The war in the african desert in ww2 was all about who controlled the oil. Your starter for ten in what year did the US and UK invade Iran together?

    While the influence of european imperialism was arguably baleful don't forget the region was part of the ottoman empire for far longer, the suppression if nationalism was as muh due to them as anybody else - come to that it's not europeans sending in troops to kurdish areas in turkey. Turkey becoming an islamic state hopefully won't happen.
    So I stand corrected, to a point.
    Though I feel the need to point out that it was 1927 before any significant oil was found in the former Ottoman Empire.
    And you are correct. The ottomans had suppressed the tribal interests for centuries. Nationalism in the region sprouted from the Ottoman defeat in WWI.

    If the promise of oil was a driving force in the decision made during the partitioning that took place, that information was a a fairly high level.
    But also, at the time, the corporate development was separate from many of the government entities that sprouted out of the partitioning.

    No, Europeans have never really given much thought to the Kurds and their quest for national recognition.

    And to be clear, I am not defending the US policies in the world, as some would suggest.
    The US has always been Britain's Bad ass little brother, jumping up to thump anyone who gave the crown any trouble, ever since we got over the little tiff we had in the early 19th century.
    It may not be so much that I've conceded your point as that you just can't hear me rolling my eyes.

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    Re: The European influence on Arab events

    Lars: "The US has always been Britain's Bad ass little brother, jumping up to thump anyone who gave the crown any trouble, ever since we got over the little tiff we had in the early 19th century."

    What about Now? Has Britain become our bad ass little brother?

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    Re: The European influence on Arab events

    Quote Originally Posted by AnneBoleyn View Post
    Lars: "The US has always been Britain's Bad ass little brother, jumping up to thump anyone who gave the crown any trouble, ever since we got over the little tiff we had in the early 19th century."

    What about Now? Has Britain become our bad ass little brother?
    Oh, no. Britain has become our feeble older sibling, reminding us of our own looming mortality.
    It may not be so much that I've conceded your point as that you just can't hear me rolling my eyes.

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    Re: The European influence on Arab events

    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    Pointless, you mean. We were discussing the way the various countries were formed after the Ottoman Empire was dissolved.
    Your first post suggested that the lines were drawn with oil in mind, but they were done before oil was discovered.
    The perpetrators simply sat down with a map and started drawing lines, to mark out territories in which each of the participants would set up puppet government entities. It is true that after oil was discovered, a few new "Principalities" were formed up, true. But most of the national boundaries are still as they were after the 1920 carving.

    The point being that the partitioning completely ignored traditional Tribal regions and old boundaries, setting up a lot of strife in the future. some of the ones who suffered the worst were Kurds, and Armenians who saw their homelands wiped from the map.
    As has already been pointed out, this is not true.

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    Re: The European influence on Arab events

    Quote Originally Posted by High Threshold View Post
    As has already been pointed out, this is not true.
    Which part is not true?
    It may not be so much that I've conceded your point as that you just can't hear me rolling my eyes.

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    Re: The European influence on Arab events

    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    Oh, no. Britain has become our feeble older sibling, reminding us of our own looming mortality.
    More like the Feeble Aged 'P'.

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    Re: The European influence on Arab events

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    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    Which part is not true?
    gmc's response not enough for you?

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