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Thread: looking for a couple of people

  1. #31
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    Re: looking for a couple of people

    It was for 'insubodination'... so he probably told someone to get ****ed i suppose. No history of theft or violence.

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    Re: looking for a couple of people

    Around 70% of convicts returned. Obviously not the lifers, but my ancestors were sent out in their teens (yes it was deliberate) . So by the time they did their 7years or so they would have been used to their living standards. And the more you played the game the more reward you got. My ancestors got married almost immediately because it meant more food and tools and blankets etc. Also most had families back home. Women left husbands and children back in England.

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    Re: looking for a couple of people

    By our standards it was a barbaric age: If he'd done something they regarded as serious sentences got up into the hundreds of lashes regularly. They were done over days, giving time to heal a bit, in some cases.


    If I have to guess I'd say he didn't actually say anything. I think he'd have got more than 35 lashes if he had. I'd guess his insubordination was something like making clear he didn't approve of something by attitude or maybe by muttering something not quite inaudible at most. But I am guessing.


    The other thing is that it was an age of physical punishment. He probably didn't really stand out.


    Yik.

    edit: As much as 70%?!? That does surprise. As much for what they were going back to as anything else though family of course is a big pull. Hmm. Are there figures for people who came back to Blighty and then went back out to Australia by choice or by reoffending?
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    Re: looking for a couple of people

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    By our standards it was a barbaric age: If he'd done something they regarded as serious sentences got up into the hundreds of lashes regularly. They were done over days, giving time to heal a bit, in some cases.




    If I have to guess I'd say he didn't actually say anything. I think he'd have got more than 35 lashes if he had. I'd guess his insubordination was something like making clear he didn't approve of something by attitude or maybe by muttering something not quite inaudible at most. But I am guessing.


    The other thing is that it was an age of physical punishment. He probably didn't really stand out.


    Yik.

    edit: As much as 70%?!? That does surprise. As much for what they were going back to as anything else though family of course is a big pull. Hmm. Are there figures for people who came back to Blighty and then went back out to Australia by choice or by reoffending?
    not sure ....you see the interest in convict history was for awhile deliberately forgotten about ...you have to remember that to be called "australian " was actually an insult in the 1800's - 1900s.. For the times this would have played heavily on people . Shame would have been there . But also in a sense almost pride to have survived the system and therefore an indulgence in autonomy and a natural disrespect of authority. (southern cross flag and ballarat) when you have fathers remembering their grandfathers scars on their legs from the irons they wore (whilst those in England telling all and sundry how bad the slave trade was ..you know?)... it brings home how recent it was.

    you can look up any of those names I've given and see for yourself who they are and which one did what ...in fact you can see my family tree. lol lol lol ...but we did good ..cause essentially they are good people in a **** situation..(maybe magistrates saw that? dunno. but my grandmother was sent as a breeder and that's exactly what she did .......

    AND BEHOLD THE WORLD HAS ME!!!!

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    Re: looking for a couple of people

    As far as the lashes go ...on Norfolk they had the surgeon and he would inspect if they were ...get this..always amazes me...done for, so as to stop or continue...just as the nazi a doctors decided. whatever happens in life you're sure it's been repeated somewhere else in another time

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    Re: looking for a couple of people

    Quote Originally Posted by magentaflame View Post
    As far as the lashes go ...on Norfolk they had the surgeon and he would inspect if they were ...get this..always amazes me...done for, so as to stop or continue...just as the nazi a doctors decided. whatever happens in life you're sure it's been repeated somewhere else in another time
    Yup. Horrifying, isn't it? It still happens now in some hellholes. I think the British Army only stopped flogging in the 1860s or thereabouts. The other thing that you have to get your head around is that the appointments of doctors (or whatever passed for one at the time) to attend punishments was because flogging was not meant to be a capital offence so doctors were there to make sure it wasn't. It wasn't, when it began, meant to be a way to prolong torture though that was the effect. Still horrible, but it was actually an advance if you look at it from the point of view of an age where corporal punishment was the norm and the way things had always been done and only a very few namby-pamby liberal types argued against it because having a doctor present was an attempt to make sure the law was not exceeded. That was an important idea at the time - no-one really cared before whether the law was exceeded or not. Sanity, sadly, was not considered.

    There were exceptions to the flogging rule. If I remember right Admiral Sir Cuthbert Collingwood, who led one of the two wings of Nelson's navy that attacked the combined French and Spanish fleets at Trafalgar, rarely if ever flogged, but was known for reforming bad characters by what seems to have been sheer force of personality and what must have been some very good junior and non-commissioned officers. Apparently Nelson was known to have said, "Oh, send them to Collingwood!" when asked what to do with a particularly bad character on more than one occasion (and he was very fond of Collingwood). That is of course assuming the culprit hadn't done one of the many things that got you hung with no option of mercy available in the law of the time. General "Daddy" Hill was another.


    I suppose it's something we have to credit the Victorians with, the move away from punishment as penalty only to the idea of reform of the prisoner. And perhaps inevitably the first moves in that direction look like little more than crude brutality. And on top of that, given what we now know about the way things end up happening, the levels of abuse in these places, whether prisons, orphanages, the military or colonies on the other side of the world must have been horrendous in all too many cases.

    We are very lucky to be alive now, and where we are, rather than then.

    edit: Flogging was only a military punishment I believe. Under the civil code people could be beaten, including women, and were but never with a cat o' nine tails. It was used in Australia because that was a penal colony under martial law at first I think...or is that another misconception? I seem to remember that civil society outside the penal system set itself up pretty quickly but have no idea of even the basics of how Australia as a civil society rather than a penal colony got started. (Though some Poms might argue that you Aussies haven't managed "civil" society yet )
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    Re: looking for a couple of people

    Funny huh? Most of the history over Governor Macquarie at the time and trying to supercede the military is interesting. My grandfather Herbert (first fleet) ended up on Norfolk Island. The governors and how they treated the population would change depending on the background of the person in charge ie Navy , marine, civilian.
    what's interesting though is ole Herbert boy once finished with his sentence became a constable. (one of the first coppers in Australia) So essentially joining the system that sent him there. But i wonder if he saw it that way ....or whether he thought it's not the old system because people ended up becoming very different to what they left behind. There is a comment made by one Governor how the women on the island needed clothes......no they didn't it's subtropical ....he was offended that the women weren't properly attired lol It's all very complicated and makes one think what the hell was going on there. but, when you think about it they were building an entire new society from scratch basically with shovel and pick.

    I'm writing the story of my grandmother and I've been buying antiquarian books from Australian writers from the 1800's ....interestingly all the books so far have come from England. There must have been a deep interest in Australia for that to happen.

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    Re: looking for a couple of people

    My ancestor, James Brine, of the Tolpuddle Martyrs, was deported to Australia. He was later Pardoned & returned to England, but because of his ideals of a Trade Union made life difficult for him he moved over to Canada with his wife, Elizabeth Standsfield. Which means I must have quite a few distant family members over there as well.

    I was talking to someone in Australia on PalTalk once, and I was surprised to find that whilst hardly anyone in the UK would even know who James Brine was, or even who the Toldpuddle Martyrs were, in Australia it appears they are all treated as Folk Heroes.

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    Re: looking for a couple of people

    Isnt that interesting? Considering the trade unionism in Australia has shaped us for what we are today. He would have done well here. Victoria at least was once known as the strike capital of Aust. Yet today we have the highest pay rates in Australia. From the Eureka stockade to the stone masons strike he missed his calling. Have you found his convict or transport records? He would have victualling and stores records as well.

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    Re: looking for a couple of people

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    Im not surprised about people not knowing about particular reasons why convicts were sent here. Loads of Irish and English
    were sent here for decension ....a lot of people were political prisoners.
    I think thats the misconception about convicts being all murderers and rapists...capital offences, they would have been hanged. (Although so was stealing sheep and highway robbery but mine had youth on their side.) It got to the point that if you sneezed you got sent.
    By the time the last transport wad sent Australian society was alreasy established. First fleeters had been pardoned or through their sentences and looking after grandchildren.

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