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Thread: I see EU Morphing into a New US

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    Re: I see EU Morphing into a New US

    Quote Originally Posted by double helix View Post
    Doesn't your country practice a kind euthnasia?

    ofhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/euthanasia/overview/asstdyingbill_1.shtml


    So, keep on letting big daddy government tell you it's ok because it's preventing unnecessary suffering in their dying. Later it could be the disabled, the elderly, accident victims etc.
    If you read the article you referenced the first paragraph states that the proposed bill was blocked - euthanasia remains, as it always has been, illegal in this country.

    The situation in Holland is totally different to the proposed bill.

    If you look at :-

    Euthanasia debate

    then you'll see my take on the subject.


    On the other hand, euthanasia has very little to do with which regime the people chose to have to fund healthcare - which has even less to do with big brother dictating forced euthanasia for all and sundry.
    Last edited by Bryn Mawr; 02-10-2008 at 03:50 PM. Reason: Clarification

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    Re: I see EU Morphing into a New US

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    I've been mulling this over, because I'm not convinced your interpretation is right, even though the facts are. I think we hold individualism in higher regard. By giving over health care, or virtually anything, over to the government we are giving them permission to make general rules for everyone. Such rules can't possibly fit every (read my) situation. Yet by having gov't take over the program I must agree to get in step. I wanna walk my own step, thankyouverymuch.

    I hope that made sense.
    Neither am I which is why i raised the question.

    I wouldn't say you hold individualism in higher regard-a most peculiar statement if you don't mind me saying so. Being individualistic doesn't mean you don't tell your government what it should be doing. If enough people want change then why should things not change-if government of the people by the people for he people means anything then surely it is that if the people want change things change. rather than debate what should be done you seem to debate whether you have the right to dictate what should be done in the first place. If you don't tell govt what to do then who is?

    We have as great a sense of individualism but Maybe we also have a greater sense of social justice than you. To us it seems morally wrong that someone should be denied medical care merely because you are poor-you can end up destitute for all sorts of reasons and getting out of it is not always simple. I was unemployed for the better part of two years-you can't move to a better area because you have little or no money, if you do you can't rent because you have no money and you can't get a job because you don't have a a local address. Apart from that you get morons that think if you are unemployed for more than a few months it must be from choice.

    It's not government making general rules for everyone or them giving us something in a nanny state that takes away the incentive to shift for yourself. it's them giving what we want and expect because if they don't they are no longer the government. One of the main reasons maggie thatcher was so hated is she was seen as uncaring, she made the mistake of ignoring public sentiment. Labour are making the same mistake. The only reason they won last time is because the alternative is even worse. That's why GB didn't hold an election last November-at least IMO , he would have lost his majority.

    You would be hard pushed I think to find anyone in the UK that doesn't believe they can say what they like about government or doesn't have the right to make demands of it. Suggest they don't have the right because that is not a function of government or that they all brainwashed by the nanny state and you will have a surprising amount of hostility to contend with. Well informed hostility at that.

    In UK if you want you can go privately for medical care you can-the NHS will pick up the nightmares that sometimes result-usually cosmetic ops that go badly wrong, or for all the chronic conditions that they don't want to know about. Personally I think anyone wanting to opt out of the NHS should be allowed to so long as they pay whenever they use it-say after a traffic accident. Bet you no one would actually do so. The last thing I want a doctor thinking about when I see him is his profit margin. How do I know he isn't giving me drugs I don't need?

    I can count on the fingers on two hands the number of times I have used the NHS in my life. On the other have I have paid for it all my working life. I am more than happy to do so because if I need it it is there without having to worry about the cost. Bet you it costs less than private care in the US and I don't have to worry if I lose my job and the benefits that go with it or if I'm self employed (which I am actually) and having a bad patch and can't afford the cover. It's a hold that no employer has over their employees in the UK.

    posted by jester
    Thats perfect, then you obvisouly dont need the US Military, with all that base you can raise your own army. We can now pull up our tent stakes and go ome.
    Actually you've pared it down considerably in recent times. Realistically if the US didn't see it as being in their interests you would have pulled all the forces back home ages ago. Times have changed maybe you should be questioning why you need such a large military nowadays. Would you want that many troops if they were based at home? I suspect bringing al your troops home would be good for American democracy as you start to really question what the armed forces are for.

    Traditionally the UK has always had a very small army based in the UK (apart from being an island nation and consequently the navy being more important, in the days of empire they were all abroad). I have seen it suggested that we have an innate dislike of too much military power at home-a kind of racial memory from the days of cromwell. I like the notion but have doubts about it's validity.

    Maybe seeing it all on your doorstep would make you question the need a bit more. Large armies can be used as an instrument of state oppression as can state militia-incidentally that's also the real reason we don't have armed police so that they would not be seen as part of a police state but enforce the law with public consent.

    Fliying a kite maybe, but tell me do you see the russian and chinese armies as being there to protect their people's freedom or as instruments of state oppression?

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    Re: I see EU Morphing into a New US

    Its fascinating to see the basic difference between someone brought up in a European nation state and the US arguing about things like this, because it always boils down to this question:

    How much personal freedom can an individual human have within the collective human society, and how much of that freedom is actually desirable?


    I think what we European's often forget is that essentially the American republic was set up within a vast wilderness, by a relatively tiny number of people descended from the Original English settlers of the Eastern seaboard, in an almost pre-technological time. To the European people who when to America it must have been an amazing sense of freedom to realize that they inhabited a land where the native people's could offer no realistic challenge, and the only limits were the physical barriers supplied by the enormously bountiful environment. That's the essence of the US philosophy, its based on the experience of founding a country that seemed so large and limitless to its people, that none of the necessary rules of the old world needed to be applied.

    What Americans don't understand about Europe is that the American sense of being more or less free with very little need for government is not one shared by Europeans. Europe has been heavily populated and civilized for millenia, and this modern American sense of entitlement to very high levels of personal freedom has not existed in the past for the reason that it was not possible, and has only become current due to the fashion on this side of the Atlantic for many American social ideas, (some of which are just not realistic for European societies if they wish to remain sustanable), and also the political failures of 20th century Europe itself.

    Britain for example has a population over 4 times that of California crammed into an area smaller than New Jersey, and has existed as a nation for at least 1,000 years, and in reality much longer. Its structures have evolved through the collective efforts of many many generations of people who often found themselves living a turbulent and violent society in a small crowded land, where escaping to some utopia was not possible, hence the need for rules and values that embraced the idea of being part of a civilized collective. Holland has 16 million people in an area probably about as big as somewhere like Rhode Island, half of which had to be reclaimed from the North Sea via a massive collective effort.

    Overall Europe has a population well over 500 million people, but even as a whole is only about half the size of the continental US. Japan is even more crowded, with 120 million people living in a country the size of Britain, where only 20 percent of the land is useful agriculturally. Such ancient and crowded regions have found over the centuries that they require a high degree of cooperative civilization if society has any chance to function. This sense of the necessary evil of the collective go from the extreme authoritarianism of say Russia or China through the centuries, the German or Scandinavian sense of respect for Authority and Rules, the French or Italian or even Japanese love of high culture as a thing in itself, or the British belief in a rule of law, that tries to organize the idea of a collective society as fairly as possible.

    This is the basic difference between the old world and the new, the luxury of space and resources allowing people to have a sense of freedom from organization that people in perhaps more crowded societies do not have the luxury of.
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    Re: I see EU Morphing into a New US

    Quote Originally Posted by Galbally View Post
    This is the basic difference between the old world and the new, the luxury of space and resources allowing people to have a sense of freedom from organization that people in perhaps more crowded societies do not have the luxury of.
    Outstanding! This fits with Giuliani's seeming conflict with the way he ran New York and how he wants to run the US.

    I think I might buy some land in Alaska.

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    Re: I see EU Morphing into a New US

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr View Post
    If you read the article you referenced the first paragraph states that the proposed bill was blocked - euthanasia remains, as it always has been, illegal in this country.

    The situation in Holland is totally different to the proposed bill.

    If you look at :-

    Euthanasia debate

    then you'll see my take on the subject.


    On the other hand, euthanasia has very little to do with which regime the people chose to have to fund healthcare - which has even less to do with big brother dictating forced euthanasia for all and sundry.
    The point of my post was not that euthanasia had anything to do with which regime the people chose to fund healthcare. It was an analogy to the willingness of people to believe whatever they are fed by a babysitter government.

    Lots of European people seem to have chosen to LET their governments TELL THE PEOPLE what is right or wrong without realizing how many members of said government are second or third generation members of immigration.

    With that kind of lassitude is with-in a people, where they have given up on an individuals good ethics and commons sense, and given big daddy governments the power to tell the masses what is ethical or senseable? Do the people of the country have such low self-confidence in their own judgement? OR is it just that they no longer have faith in the good judgement and ethics of the people living and working around them?

    Eventually, the government will have gone from no euthinasia to telling you its ok to have your grandad put to sleep under certin conditions because its the more humane and loving thing to do. Get my point now?

    More government is not the answer to unemployment, crime and high prices. Better education, better family values, tighter government self-policing and more investment support in business, these things bring about change. These things give people a foundation to build on.

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    Re: I see EU Morphing into a New US

    Quote Originally Posted by double helix View Post
    The point of my post was not that euthanasia had anything to do with which regime the people chose to fund healthcare. It was an analogy to the willingness of people to believe whatever they are fed by a babysitter government.

    Lots of European people seem to have chosen to LET their governments TELL THE PEOPLE what is right or wrong without realizing how many members of said government are second or third generation members of immigration.

    With that kind of lassitude is with-in a people, where they have given up on an individuals good ethics and commons sense, and given big daddy governments the power to tell the masses what is ethical or senseable? Do the people of the country have such low self-confidence in their own judgement? OR is it just that they no longer have faith in the good judgement and ethics of the people living and working around them?

    Eventually, the government will have gone from no euthinasia to telling you its ok to have your grandad put to sleep under certin conditions because its the more humane and loving thing to do. Get my point now?

    More government is not the answer to unemployment, crime and high prices. Better education, better family values, tighter government self-policing and more investment support in business, these things bring about change. These things give people a foundation to build on.
    You seem to miss one very important fact - we tell the government what we want to happen.

    The government would never impose forced euthanasia because it would no longer be the government if it did.

    Far from " Lots of European people seem to have chosen to LET their governments TELL THE PEOPLE" to accept forced euthanasia, the people of one small European country chose to tell their government that it was what they were required to enact. The Swiss, on the other hand, chose to go for consensual euthanasia because that was the will of the Swiss people.

    It still has nothing to do with how we choose to fund healthcare.

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    Re: I see EU Morphing into a New US

    Quote Originally Posted by Galbally View Post
    Its fascinating to see the basic difference between someone brought up in a European nation state and the US arguing about things like this, because it always boils down to this question:

    ------

    This is the basic difference between the old world and the new, the luxury of space and resources allowing people to have a sense of freedom from organization that people in perhaps more crowded societies do not have the luxury of.
    Very well put. There is also, I think, a shared experience in europe of warfare and destruction on a scale that the US has never experienced, and the shared sense of betrayal by those who would rule and instead mislead and misuse their power. A kind of culture shock that left us with a determination that govt should do our bidding and provide what we think we need rather than what it thinks we should have and an instinctive distrust and cynicism about blind patriotism that lingers on. No more detached government but one intrinsically involved in and responsible for the well-being of the people.

    posted by double helix
    Lots of European people seem to have chosen to LET their governments TELL THE PEOPLE what is right or wrong without realizing how many members of said government are second or third generation members of immigration.
    Where on earth do you get these bizarre ideas from?

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    Re: I see EU Morphing into a New US

    It's been some time since this thread and a lot has happened between then and now. Extensive IS terrorism and Western intervention, global recession and the looming Brexit referendum.

    How do our views stack up now, to how the thread started in 2008.

    Is the EU, if it survives, a blueprint for a mirror of the USA ? A United States of Europe ? Do the cultural differences of it's sovereign states prevent an ultimate, cohesive United States of Europe ?
    "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
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    Re: I see EU Morphing into a New US

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfire View Post
    It's been some time since this thread and a lot has happened between then and now. Extensive IS terrorism and Western intervention, global recession and the looming Brexit referendum.

    How do our views stack up now, to how the thread started in 2008.

    Is the EU, if it survives, a blueprint for a mirror of the USA ? A United States of Europe ? Do the cultural differences of it's sovereign states prevent an ultimate, cohesive United States of Europe ?
    Certainly a lot of the politicians, especially in Germany and France, want the EU to morph into the United States of Europe.

    Whilst the bureaucrats can over-rule the elected MEPs I would shy away from closer links but give Europe a decent governmental structure and I'd be all for it.

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