Make these ads go away.
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 51

Thread: Defining anti-Semitism

  1. #1
    Supporting Member
    is risen
     
    I am:
    Happy
     
    spot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brigstow
    Posts
    33,169
    Local Date
    03-24-2017
    Local Time
    07:54 PM
    Points
    47,963
    Gifts Heart Car Beer Beer Burger Cake Ban Hammer Beer

    Defining anti-Semitism

    There's a background article: What's the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism? - BBC News

    I thought I might have a stab at starting a thread.

    I have no problem with an area along the Eastern Mediterranean coast being called Israel. I don't mind whether the area is circumscribed by the 1948 border, or the current de facto border, or extends further still so long as it doesn't involve a war to set the boundary.

    Judaism or Jewish as a label for a self-identified group of people isn't a ethnicity as far as I'm aware, unlike for example African-American or Chinese or Amerindian. It can't be a religious designation given how many people self-identify as both Jewish and Atheist. If it's used of a group of people I think it has cultural overtones rather than religious or ethnic.

    Do I fall into an anti-Semitic category yet?

    I have an absolute problem with every country whose Constitution and law distinguishes its application to any ethnicity or religion or culture or gender or sexual orientation, to pick a few categories. That goes for every country which specifies that it applies laws according to an Islamic code, for instance.

    Do I fall into an anti-Semitic category yet?

    I note that the current Constitution and law of Israel distinguishes its application on the basis of Jewish identity, and I view that as an equivalent problem. I note that the consequence of this identification includes segregation and the restraint of rights.

    I think the Constitution and law of Israel should be blind to this or any other such identification, just as I thought the law of South Africa should be when it wasn't. The consequence of those distinctions are obvious now just as they were obvious then.

    I would maintain that I am not anti-Semitic.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    This user has no status.
     
    I am:
    Happy
     
    Bruv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Kent..... South East England
    Posts
    11,251
    Local Date
    03-24-2017
    Local Time
    07:54 PM
    Points
    58,036
    Gifts Beer Beer FacePalm Ban Hammer Beer Beer Beer Beer

    Re: Defining anti-Semitism

    I see the present Labour party as a bit of a witch hunt.
    Livingston commented something along the lines that 'Criticism of Israeli politics is not anti-semitic'.
    His opponents would disagree...........irrationally.
    I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    is just trying to keep her head
     
    I am:
    Shy
     
    AnneBoleyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn NY
    Posts
    6,307
    Local Date
    03-24-2017
    Local Time
    03:54 PM
    Points
    26,495
    Gifts Kitten Kitten Kitten Cake Gift Balloons Gift Car

    Re: Defining anti-Semitism

    If you are comparing Israel to South Africa, you are not anti-semitic, but you are an hysterical drama queen. The comparison is stupid, not factual, and illogical.

  4. #4
    Supporting Member
    is risen
     
    I am:
    Happy
     
    spot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brigstow
    Posts
    33,169
    Local Date
    03-24-2017
    Local Time
    07:54 PM
    Points
    47,963
    Gifts Heart Car Beer Beer Burger Cake Ban Hammer Beer

    Re: Defining anti-Semitism

    Quote Originally Posted by AnneBoleyn View Post
    If you are comparing Israel to South Africa, you are not anti-semitic, but you are an hysterical drama queen. The comparison is stupid, not factual, and illogical.
    What I wrote was that the current Constitution and law of Israel distinguishes its application on the basis of Jewish identity and that the consequence of this identification includes segregation and the restraint of rights. Does it not? Is there no segregation on that basis in Israel at the moment? Does identification on that basis have any effect on the rights of the person identified?
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    This user has no status.
     
    I am:
    ----
     

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    581
    Local Date
    03-24-2017
    Local Time
    02:54 PM
    Points
    2,170

    Re: Defining anti-Semitism

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    I don't mind whether the area is circumscribed...
    I don't either, but it's certainly circumcised.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    is just trying to keep her head
     
    I am:
    Shy
     
    AnneBoleyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn NY
    Posts
    6,307
    Local Date
    03-24-2017
    Local Time
    03:54 PM
    Points
    26,495
    Gifts Kitten Kitten Kitten Cake Gift Balloons Gift Car

    Re: Defining anti-Semitism

    In order to make a point, you deliberately, spot, included S. Africa. You did not have to.

    As to how we identify, our commonality..........we have been persecuted for thousands of years. Whether an Asian Jew, a Middle Eastern Jew or a European (perhaps especially European) Jew, in every Jew was the need of protection, a homeland, which is why we have ALWAYS SAID, since the Diaspora, "Next year in Jerusalem."

    People who can't get their beady minds off of the few Jews there are in this world---maybe their obsession IS Anti-Semitic, I'll think about it.

  7. #7
    Supporting Member
    is risen
     
    I am:
    Happy
     
    spot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brigstow
    Posts
    33,169
    Local Date
    03-24-2017
    Local Time
    07:54 PM
    Points
    47,963
    Gifts Heart Car Beer Beer Burger Cake Ban Hammer Beer

    Re: Defining anti-Semitism

    Quote Originally Posted by AnneBoleyn View Post
    In order to make a point, you deliberately, spot, included S. Africa. You did not have to.
    Perhaps it would help if you could explain briefly how the two systems differ. Perhaps the differences between today's Israel and pre-democratic South Africa are enough to outweigh what may be mere superficial similarities. What are the differences?



    we have ALWAYS SAID, since the Diaspora, "Next year in Jerusalem."
    I haven't the slightest problem with the descendants of the exiled people of the Diaspora living reunited in Jerusalem, or in Israel as a whole. None. And you have no reason to think otherwise.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  8. #8
    gmc
    Currently Online Now
    Senior Member
    This user has no status.
     
    I am:
    ----
     

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    12,690
    Local Date
    03-24-2017
    Local Time
    07:54 PM
    Points
    24,890
    Gifts Cocktail Car Beer

    Re: Defining anti-Semitism

    It seems to me that if anyone criticises the policy of the israeli state rather than being a valid rational criticism of one nations policy towards another you hear cries of anti-semitism as a way of dodging discussing the issues. At it's heart are two tribes that lay claim to the same land, take religion out of it and they might have come to a workable solution by now.

    If I point out that the true cause of anti-semitism is two thousand years of christian propogandsa that the jews killed jesus christ and that their punishment was to be rendered homeless does that make me anti-catholic or anti-christian? If I make the factually correct statement that the catholic church actively supported hitler and ordered their priests to pray for him from the pulpit and that it was a pope that introduced the yellow star to be displayed by jews does that make me anti-catholic? If I make the factual point that america passed legislation to prevent the immigration of those of the jewish faith or that anti-semitism was at the heart of american financial support for the nazi party am I being anto american? If I object to the pope and others in the christian estableishment trying to re-write histiory and claim the holocaust was caused by atheists am I raising a legitimate concern or being anti-catholic or anti-christian? Now we are shocked if anyone says the jews were asking for it, go back to the start of the last century and tghere were many who believed they deserved whatever they got just as many believed that those of a darker shade of skin (not so long ago ***** race would have been an acceptable term) were actually inferior. Equal but still not quite so equal.

    To call somone an "anti" is to take away the need to consider what has actually been said and whether they have something to say worth listening to. Anti (put in whatever race, creed coour ,nation whatever) has become in our day and age a man made construct intended to stop discussion. Don't listen to what is said he/she is an anti.

    Of course you could blame the british for the mess in palestine oe the turks for being on the losing side in ww1.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    is just trying to keep her head
     
    I am:
    Shy
     
    AnneBoleyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn NY
    Posts
    6,307
    Local Date
    03-24-2017
    Local Time
    03:54 PM
    Points
    26,495
    Gifts Kitten Kitten Kitten Cake Gift Balloons Gift Car

    Re: Defining anti-Semitism

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    Perhaps it would help if you could explain briefly how the two systems differ. Perhaps the differences between today's Israel and pre-democratic South Africa are enough to outweigh what may be mere superficial similarities. What are the differences?
    I'm not explaining anything to you spot. It's your ax, go grind it yourself. If you can't see your absurdity, don't look to me to inform you.

  10. #10
    Supporting Member
    is risen
     
    I am:
    Happy
     
    spot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brigstow
    Posts
    33,169
    Local Date
    03-24-2017
    Local Time
    07:54 PM
    Points
    47,963
    Gifts Heart Car Beer Beer Burger Cake Ban Hammer Beer

    Re: Defining anti-Semitism

    Register to remove this ad.
    Quote Originally Posted by AnneBoleyn View Post
    I'm not explaining anything to you spot. It's your ax, go grind it yourself. If you can't see your absurdity, don't look to me to inform you.
    The thing is, in both the old South Africa, and in the ex-Confederacy States in America before JFK's presidency, and in the present Israel, there has been an official categorization of residents. In the first and second instances it was based on descent from Europeans, in the last it's those that the state recognizes as Jews. The similarities between the three legal systems include discrimination, segregation and differentiated rights on the basis of those categories.

    Now, I regard this as a plain statement of fact which, if it's not true, would be very easy to show to be false in which case I'll retract and apologize. I know it's true, you know it's true, and all the bluster in the world isn't going to make anyone think you're right in claiming I'm wrong. Quite simply, I'm not.

    Fixing who could vote candidates into government and who couldn't was the underlying basis of white majority rule in the Southern States until well into my lifetime, it was the underlying basis of white majority rule in the the old South Africa until 25 years ago, and it's the current underlying basis of government in Israel today. The discrimination and segregation and limitation of rights in all three instances have been an unavoidable consequence.

    Do I fall into an anti-Semitic category yet? Because I don't think that highlighting injustice is anti-Semitic, and I think the current Constitution and law of Israel is unjust insofar as it creates preferential treatment on the basis of ethnicity, religion or culture.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.5.2