Make these ads go away.
+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 53

Thread: Jerusalem

  1. #31
    Premium Member
    This user has no status.
     
    I am:
    ----
     
    tude dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    North Central Kansas
    Posts
    3,670
    Local Date
    08-21-2018
    Local Time
    08:26 AM
    Points
    17,004
    Gifts Beer Beer

    Re: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    Do you regard any of that as the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians?
    I'll just tell you, a lot of bad stuff was going all around.
    What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? - W. C. Fields

    A woman drove me to drink and I didn’t even have the decency to thank her. - W. C. Fields

  2. #32
    Supporting Member
    is risen
     
    I am:
    Happy
     
    spot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brigstow
    Posts
    34,437
    Local Date
    08-21-2018
    Local Time
    02:26 PM
    Points
    54,957
    Gifts Heart Car Beer Beer Burger Cake Ban Hammer Beer

    Re: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    I'll just tell you, a lot of bad stuff was going all around.
    That is an interesting observation but it doesn't correspond to the question. It's evasive. Either Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded at the time were engaged, as Hamas have been on many occasions, in the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians, or Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded were not, and I asked which statement is true. You know Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded at the time were engaged in the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians, I know Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded at the time were engaged in the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians, the difference between us is that you refuse to he honest in any discussion here because you choose not to engage in what's being said.

    Menachem Begin was not some fly-by-night goon who escaped justice at the hands of a court of law, he became Prime Minister of Israel as a result of these outrages.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  3. #33
    Senior Member
    This user has no status.
     
    I am:
    ----
     

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Kingston-upon-Thames
    Posts
    5,034
    Local Date
    08-21-2018
    Local Time
    02:26 PM
    Points
    8,870
    Gifts Beer Beer

    Re: Jerusalem

    Just on the victors writing the history issue - yes, through most of recorded history they have. But from about the 1960s in the UK that issue was seriously addressed. Authority in general started to be questioned in ways it never had before at a popular level and academics were not immune. Certainly throughout my education we were constantly reminded that history was written by the winners and to look past that to get closer to the truth. It led to many careers being made by re-evaluations of British history and the modern widely held sense that colonialism was not actually a good thing is one of the results. It is also a reminder to anyone reading ancient texts that history as we understand it wasn't a consideration for most people writing in their own time: the purpose was to glorify the People (whoever they were) or the Ancestors (ditto) not to tell the literal truth. Certainly nowadays any historian worth the name is expected to have an awareness that that any writings had a writer and to consider the writer's possible views, biases and prejudices and that they themselves have their own assumptions, biases and prejudices.

    Sadly, not all uphold this standard.

    In addition, there are signs that the whole questioning of assumptions can go too far (though no-one is arguing that assumptions should not be challenged as far as I know). For example, when we studied the Wars of the Roses in school we were taught that the mediaeval texts that gave numbers and casualties were written by the winners and should be regarded as heavily influenced by propaganda. In particular it was argued that the portrayal of Richard III as a hunchback was Tudor propaganda - the Tudors being the Lancastrian dynasty that finally won. The Tudors were originally minor bit part players but all the big families were dead by then (see Game of Thrones). Then after some very neat detective work the grave of Richard III was found in Leicester and he did indeed have a severe hunchback. In contemporary accounts casualty figures for some of the battles were given, and the numbers involved. These were widely questioned and assumed to be false - various arguments about propaganda were deployed, even some arguments about whether it as possible to assemble that many men given the agricultural and transport capabilities of the time. Then they found the site of one o the battles where a rout and massacre had been reported in a battle that took place in thick snow. They found the battlefield, did a dig and found the site of the massacre. It all fit very well with the accounts given, and not much sign of exaggeration.

    I believe a similar process has happened in the USA and it's been referred to above: tude dog was taught the Noble Manifest Destiny, God-given of a classic written by winners with big axes to grind type history. LarsMac got a more nuanced view (time and distance being to some extent interchangeable concepts) and certainly I've seen many Americans facing up to bits of their history and wincing and felt sympathy because I do the same with ours. Equally, there are parts where you can look and think well, we did some things not too badly, all things considered.

    It's easy to go too far either way, really. History can just look like a record of endless misery when you consider the wars, famines and pestilences that punctuate it. We can forget that even with all our problems there has, for the bulk of people round the world, never been a better time to be alive with a good chance of making it past 40 and access to effective medicine and even education than about NOW.

    Or in other words, be thankful you live in a time of soft lavatory paper and good dentistry. (with an acknowledgement to Terry Pratchett for that one).
    The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
    Lone voice: "I'm not."

  4. #34
    Senior Member
    This user has no status.
     
    I am:
    ----
     

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Kingston-upon-Thames
    Posts
    5,034
    Local Date
    08-21-2018
    Local Time
    02:26 PM
    Points
    8,870
    Gifts Beer Beer

    Re: Jerusalem

    I don't think there's any doubt Begin bombed and terrorised his way to power. Many have done so. Mao Zedong, Franco, Castro - any leader of a successful independence movement has done so throughout most of history. Take away the bomb and include horses and nomads have come out of the wild places and done the same. We've yet to find another way with the possible exception of the break up of the 2nd British Empire, India in particular (the loss of the American colonies marking the end of the 1st).

    I can't say I have a particular gripe with Begin over many others. Particularly not just after the trauma of WW2. My gripe with Israel is that it treats the Palestinians in ways that are frighteningly reminiscent of the way the Nazis treated them. This was particularly brought home to me 20 odd years ago when my neighbour was an Israeli who had married his English teacher and settled over here with her. I remember him explaining to me how the Palestinians were animals, not really human.

    Just seen a report that Trump has described illegal immigrants the same way.
    The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
    Lone voice: "I'm not."

  5. #35
    Premium Member
    This user has no status.
     
    I am:
    ----
     
    tude dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    North Central Kansas
    Posts
    3,670
    Local Date
    08-21-2018
    Local Time
    08:26 AM
    Points
    17,004
    Gifts Beer Beer

    Re: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    That is an interesting observation but it doesn't correspond to the question. It's evasive. Either Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded at the time were engaged, as Hamas have been on many occasions, in the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians, or Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded were not, and I asked which statement is true. You know Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded at the time were engaged in the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians, I know Menachem Begin and the Irgun membership he commanded at the time were engaged in the deliberate terrorist killings of unarmed civilians, the difference between us is that you refuse to he honest in any discussion here because you choose not to engage in what's being said.

    Menachem Begin was not some fly-by-night goon who escaped justice at the hands of a court of law, he became Prime Minister of Israel as a result of these outrages.
    I know all about Menachem Begin. You want to rant, go ahead. I have no obligation to comment.
    What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? - W. C. Fields

    A woman drove me to drink and I didn’t even have the decency to thank her. - W. C. Fields

  6. #36
    Supporting Member
    is risen
     
    I am:
    Happy
     
    spot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brigstow
    Posts
    34,437
    Local Date
    08-21-2018
    Local Time
    02:26 PM
    Points
    54,957
    Gifts Heart Car Beer Beer Burger Cake Ban Hammer Beer

    Re: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    I know all about Menachem Begin. You want to rant, go ahead. I have no obligation to comment.
    On the contrary, you went off on one over Hamas if you remember. I'm merely trying to establish how you think they're different and you won't help me to find out.

    We could change the Prime Minister if you like. Would Ariel Sharon be any easier to compare more favorably? Should I offer a third choice too?
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  7. #37
    Premium Member
    This user has no status.
     
    I am:
    ----
     
    tude dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    North Central Kansas
    Posts
    3,670
    Local Date
    08-21-2018
    Local Time
    08:26 AM
    Points
    17,004
    Gifts Beer Beer

    Re: Jerusalem

    What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? - W. C. Fields

    A woman drove me to drink and I didn’t even have the decency to thank her. - W. C. Fields

  8. #38
    Supporting Member
    is risen
     
    I am:
    Happy
     
    spot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brigstow
    Posts
    34,437
    Local Date
    08-21-2018
    Local Time
    02:26 PM
    Points
    54,957
    Gifts Heart Car Beer Beer Burger Cake Ban Hammer Beer

    Re: Jerusalem

    You'll pardon me for thinking you're prejudiced, I hope. Or you could alternatively explain the difference and persuade me with your facts.

    For the thread, the events of the opening post are discussed at https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8355631.html
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  9. #39
    Proudly humble
    is Lost in the Ozone, again.
     
    I am:
    Cool
     
    LarsMac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    usually on the road to somewhere.
    Posts
    10,128
    Local Date
    08-21-2018
    Local Time
    07:26 AM
    Points
    39,085
    Gifts Beer Balloons Gift Car Beer

    Re: Jerusalem

    It is extremely annoying to me that almost EVERY time someone mentions bad behavior by people on one side of a conflict, some people must point out the bad behavior of the other side.

    Killing civilians and children is unacceptable, IMHO, no matter who has killed them in the past.
    It may not be so much that I've conceded your point as that you just can't hear me rolling my eyes.

  10. #40
    gmc
    Currently Offline
    Senior Member
    This user has no status.
     
    I am:
    ----
     

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    13,243
    Local Date
    08-21-2018
    Local Time
    02:26 PM
    Points
    28,250
    Gifts Cocktail Car Beer

    Re: Jerusalem

    Register to remove this ad.
    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    On the contrary, you went off on one over Hamas if you remember. I'm merely trying to establish how you think they're different and you won't help me to find out.

    We could change the Prime Minister if you like. Would Ariel Sharon be any easier to compare more favorably? Should I offer a third choice too?
    They are different they were successful. Hitlers brownshirts were terrorists - they were successful at least for a while. The KKK were terrorists they succeeded for quite a few years now some would like to see them as a quaint echo from the past exercising their biblically inspired right to hate even as they cheer on donald trump. The NRA try to portray schoolchildren as terrorists for trying not to be slaughtered whilke at school. The british in india used terror churchill would have quite happily used mustard gas on the arabs in the 1920's. The british deliberately set out to terrorise the german civilian population in ww2 firebombing the cities. Nigel farage claims he was terrorised by snp supporters when he came to scotland and had to run for cover. Terror or justofiable murder in a good cause take your pick.. IMO trying to weigh up who is the nicest terrorist is a bit pointless.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.5.2