the role of women in islam

[mikeinie]

Originally Posted by nlwright

so far i find the replies to my query not only unhelpful but ignorant. i am sorry for anyone who disagrees with the way muslim women are treated but i wish to know facts...not to bandy about insults. please keep any negative comments to yourselves if you have no information to offer me.

Before you judge me, see my post in your introduction thread.

[nlwright]

mikeinie,

i do not judge you. i judge the remarks being made. i asked a question because i required information. i went to what i deemed to be a good source of information for the question i have asked. i understand that you obviously reject islam as a religion. that is fine for you. i am not here to judge anybody about what they think or choose to believe. i am using my own intellect, my own judgment, my own brain to come to my own conclusions. in order to make informed choices i need information. i have not received any information in the replies made here....just jokes and insults against the religion. that is not useful or helpful in any way.

i ask all the people here who have made silly remarks rather than answer my question: why are you here? do you wait for opportunities to make fun? the jokes here do not look friendly to objective eyes. i cannot imagine that a muslim would find them funny in the least. but then i am new. perhaps this joking is accepted by the muslims here.

also note, that when i use the term "ignorant" i mean uninstructed or uninformed. if you are indeed instructed and informed, please answer my question.

[mikeinie]

Originally Posted by nlwright

mikeinie,

i do not judge you. i judge the remarks being made. i asked a question because i required information. i went to what i deemed to be a good source of information for the question i have asked. i understand that you obviously reject islam as a religion. that is fine for you. i am not here to judge anybody about what they think or choose to believe. i am using my own intellect, my own judgment, my own brain to come to my own conclusions. in order to make informed choices i need information. i have not received any information in the replies made here....just jokes and insults against the religion. that is not useful or helpful in any way.

i ask all the people here who have made silly remarks rather than answer my question: why are you here? do you wait for opportunities to make fun? the jokes here do not look friendly to objective eyes. i cannot imagine that a muslim would find them funny in the least. but then i am new. perhaps this joking is accepted by the muslims here.

also note, that when i use the term "ignorant" i mean uninstructed or uninformed. if you are indeed instructed and informed, please answer my question.

Wow, you are pretty serious…

I respect all religions and beliefs.

Let me ask you this then in return, do you think that because you worded your posts so nicely that it is still ok to ask questions about other religions listing all the stereotypical/negative things that you hear about the religion first? Shouldn’t your first quest to be to find out the values and beliefs of the faiths your are looking into prior to listing all the negative thing you hear? Maybe by looking into the religion first it may answer your questions to the negative views that you have either heard or viewed.

Your posts are put forth as explorative and searching, but they are in fact only listing the rumored treatment of women within the religions and have nothing to do with the religious beliefs themselves. I did not joke or insult any religions here, I quoted back to you the statements you made, all-be-it in your attempt at political correctness.

[nlwright]

that is a fair question.

first i have not come here loaded with stereotypes or to be politically correct. i also have made no list of "all the negative stereotypes" about that faith. i asked specifically to clarify how women are treated in the islamic tradition....a question i put to all of the religions i study. for the purposes of my research i must ask. reading the scripture first and interpreting it for myself does not help me because i have my own values to bring to it and i may not be likely to interpret the scripture the way a person who is a believer might. also many people who are believers have varying opinions themselves about how scripture ought to be interpreted. a forum is a good place to ask because then i can hear a number of different replies about those varying opinions. my examples are not based on what i have heard about the religion, but they are based on my personal experiences and observations.

muslim women do cover themselves. in fact i went into detail about the varying degrees in which they cover themselves. my high school friends do not cover themselves at all. my college friend only covered her hair by her own choice. my son's schoolmates mothers cover all but the face and some women i have traveled with on the bus cover themselves completely and only have the eyes showing in order to see. it is also a fact that in some areas of the world where islam is prevalent women are not allowed social freedoms but must be accompanied by a male relative.

it is also true that there have been cases where the punishments for disobeying this rule have been quite severe. at no point did i say "all muslims are like such and such". i merely asked for an explanation. i would like to know that, if i were to consider islam as a faith, on what basis should i accept this seeming disparity in equality of the sexes, particularly when i have already enjoyed the freedom of choosing to show my body or not or choosing to have a conversation with a man who is not my relative (for example).

i thought the very best people to explain the laws of islam to me would be other muslims. how on earth am i to find out if i do not ask? how else should i ask such a question?

YES. it is most certainly okay to ask questions about religious stereotypes. if they are not true or misconstrued then how else would one dispel one's ignorance? the reason my question is perceived as having "nothing to do with the religious belief (itself)" is simply because i am unfamiliar with that religious belief. i do not know that it has nothing to do with that religion. in catholicism it DOES have to do with their belief. they go into great detail and cite various scriptures to support their belief that women cannot be priests for example. i did not intend for my wording to be polite but i am certainly not going to be rude or disrespectful either. i intended my wording to accurately indicate that which i wish to have clarified.

if you must know i am writing a book to help bring better understanding about religion in general. i ask the tough questions because they deserve an answer and because i hypothesize that these "stereotypes" are not accurate. i also ask the tough questions because the reaction they get and how they are answered also might indicate the nature and character of the people who ascribe to certain belief systems. thus far i have noticed that each religion runs the gamut of humanity. you have good people, patient people, rude people, angry people etc...just as you would with any random group of human beings.

[mikeinie]

Fair enough, then that is more direct than in your introduction where who imply that you are seeking and are open to ‘eastern religion’. At least now we know you are gathering information and not necessarily looking for enlightenment.

I was only trying to have a bit of fun with you yesterday and did not intend to give you a wrong impression, anyone who knows me on the forum I would think would vouch for me. (I hope)

In my opinion, most religions tend to suppress woman, did you know that even in the Catholic church only up to about 25 years ago, woman were not allowed to back into a church after giving birth to a child until they were seen by a priest and went to confession? They were seen as ‘unclean’.

In Buddhism only men are monks.

In the Blue Mosque in Istanbul woman are only allowed to access the upper balconies in the back, in the Vatican (although no longer the case) there is a partition 1/3 of the way down and woman use to use a different entrance and be closed out from the main church area.

Yet, in most religions, it remains to be the women that are the most faithful and supportive of their faiths.

With a catholic background myself, and in my own belief, I think that is why in the bible Jesus always had a special relationship with women that have since been played down by the church. There is no evidence that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, she could have very well have been Jesus’ wife, and it is clear throughout the bible of the close relationship he held with his mother Mary, where Joseph is seldom spoken of (although I have my own reasons for why that is as well).

Again, I hope I can redeem myself from yesterday, I was just winding you up.

[nlwright]

i thank you...

upon further reflection i think i judged the comments too quickly. i can see that there is an intimate relationship going on with the people who post here. you all seem to know each other well and have a fun loving attitude. one of my first questions was responded to defensively by a muslim who admitted to me that there are not very many muslim posters in this forum because there are others who see fit to attack their beliefs.

personally i like people who challenge me. it can be difficult but it makes me review my motives and ideas more thoroughly. i am open to various religions but i have had reasons to reject them in the past, not least of which is the way women are generally treated in them. this was about ten years ago. i have decided to review my rejections and find out if i was indeed right to do so.

catholics interest me for the exact reasons you mentioned. christ had a special relationship with mary magdalene...women were the first persons he revealed himself to after the resurrection, his talking to and touching the samaritan woman etc. and yet the men who make the rules state that women cannot do such and such. i am still in the process of examining this question...

i think i may have mis-worded my intro....i want to learn about eastern religions (as well as western ones and even obscure ones) and have some questions that i was too polite to ask in the past to be answered.

ten years ago it was enough for me to say "oh that's what they believe, alright then i'll just move on". now i want to ask "on what basis should i accept this belief? why?" perhaps my earlier impressions were mistaken. certainly i am not the only one who is mistaken. perhaps it is time someone clarified all of this to people in general. in my dilettantish efforts at studying the world's religions i have also found much that is beautiful, wise or useful. some atheists believe that all religion should just be "stamped out". i ask, really? all of them? why?

it is useful for me to pose the general question "if i am shopping for religion, which one should i buy? or should they all just be left on the shelf?" i would naturally need some criteria for making my decisions. i am trying my best to be non-judgmental and open to different ideas but as all people carry around their own special biases this can be very difficult. your challenging me helps me to better accomplish my goals by seeing how my questions are perceived by others. perhaps my line of questioning is poor. surely i can always improve.

[oscar]

Originally Posted by nlwright

i thank you...

upon further reflection i think i judged the comments too quickly. i can see that there is an intimate relationship going on with the people who post here. you all seem to know each other well and have a fun loving attitude. one of my first questions was responded to defensively by a muslim who admitted to me that there are not very many muslim posters in this forum because there are others who see fit to attack their beliefs.

personally i like people who challenge me. it can be difficult but it makes me review my motives and ideas more thoroughly. i am open to various religions but i have had reasons to reject them in the past, not least of which is the way women are generally treated in them. this was about ten years ago. i have decided to review my rejections and find out if i was indeed right to do so.

catholics interest me for the exact reasons you mentioned. christ had a special relationship with mary magdalene...women were the first persons he revealed himself to after the resurrection, his talking to and touching the samaritan woman etc. and yet the men who make the rules state that women cannot do such and such. i am still in the process of examining this question...

i think i may have mis-worded my intro....i want to learn about eastern religions (as well as western ones and even obscure ones) and have some questions that i was too polite to ask in the past to be answered.

ten years ago it was enough for me to say "oh that's what they believe, alright then i'll just move on". now i want to ask "on what basis should i accept this belief? why?" perhaps my earlier impressions were mistaken. certainly i am not the only one who is mistaken. perhaps it is time someone clarified all of this to people in general. in my dilettantish efforts at studying the world's religions i have also found much that is beautiful, wise or useful. some atheists believe that all religion should just be "stamped out". i ask, really? all of them? why?

it is useful for me to pose the general question "if i am shopping for religion, which one should i buy? or should they all just be left on the shelf?" i would naturally need some criteria for making my decisions. i am trying my best to be non-judgmental and open to different ideas but as all people carry around their own special biases this can be very difficult. your challenging me helps me to better accomplish my goals by seeing how my questions are perceived by others. perhaps my line of questioning is poor. surely i can always improve.

Unfortunately, we have had spammers on this forum and we came to recognise the opening posts.

I think what you are also missing in religion especially Muslim is differnet cultures between West and East and law..... Sharia law for one. Sharia law originates from the Koran. Sharia law exists in Britain and is used by muslims in family courts.
As far as i'm concerned, it has no place in this country.....we are British and we abide by British law.

[nlwright]

that's very interesting...i have never heard of sharia law...i also did not know this went on in britain. that sounds worrisome if there are laws that run counter to british law. what about judicial matters between muslims and non-muslims?

have there been problems presented so far as a result of this?

[oscar]

Originally Posted by nlwright

that's very interesting...i have never heard of sharia law...i also did not know this went on in britain. that sounds worrisome if there are laws that run counter to british law. what about judicial matters between muslims and non-muslims?

have there been problems presented so far as a result of this?

Due to political correctness in Britain, if you dis-agree with Sharia law, you tend to be labelled racist. In matters concerning a British vs Muslim case, the British courts decide always but muslim vs muslim in non criminal cases are dealt with by muslim courts using Sharia law. Usually to do with divorce settlements or property issue's. This link will tell you more about Sharia law in Britain.


Revealed: UK’s first official sharia courts - Times Online

I am oppossed to Sharia law only because if i'm arrested in a muslim country, i do not expect to have my own law, i would expect to be handled by the laws of that country.

[Richard Bell]

Originally Posted by nlwright

i have not received any information in the replies made here....just jokes and insults against the religion. that is not useful or helpful in any way.

i ask all the people here who have made silly remarks rather than answer my question: why are you here? do you wait for opportunities to make fun?

Many of us do. ( I, for one, list "taking the mick" in my profile as one of my interests.)

Many here do not put a lot of credibility in religions. I find them to be pretty much of a pantload. (That's religions, not FG members! )

FG is not a very reverent forum, for the most part.

You'll probably think of this as another smart ass remark, but I would seriously suggest to you that one of the very few belief systems that treat women as equals is the Wiccan creed.

Quite likely not what you weren't looking for, but there it is...