I Have Figured Politics Out-Finally

[spot]

That's "the reality is as it is" under Capitalism, or in the USA, whichever you prefer. It's not the only way to order society. It's far too unfair to that carer in the local hospital, for example. "There are not many people who would risk their money" again focuses on the US model in which "their money" is such a central issue.

I'm all in favour of property rights in a society which recognises limiting restraints on the poverty of the underclass. If I want to know how rich a country is I judge by the state and extent of its poor.

[Accountable]

Originally Posted by spot

That's "the reality is as it is" under Capitalism, or in the USA, whichever you prefer. It's not the only way to order society. It's far too unfair to that carer in the local hospital, for example. "There are not many people who would risk their money" again focuses on the US model in which "their money" is such a central issue.

I'm all in favour of property rights in a society which recognises limiting restraints on the poverty of the underclass. If I want to know how rich a country is I judge by the state and extent of its poor.

Our poor have cable tv and air conditioning.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Accountable

Our poor have cable tv and air conditioning.

Of the order of a million of your fellow citizens haven't even got a roof over their head.

[along-for-the-ride]

In my opinion, there is a problem when a person uses just one word to summarize a persons beliefs or political affiliation. We do this when we want to categorize a person to attempt to understand him/her.

[Accountable]

Originally Posted by spot

Of the order of a million of your fellow citizens haven't even got a roof over their head.

We've had this conversation before. Our definitions are too disparate to even communicate here.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Accountable

We've had this conversation before. Our definitions are too disparate to even communicate here.

On an average night of the year, across the whole of the USA, by reason of poverty, of the order of a million people sleep rough, outdoors, and a couple of million more are in charitable hostels or temporary shelter. You just don't want to think about it. It's a hell of a distance from "our poor have cable tv and air conditioning", you simply refuse to look at the dark side of free enterprise and the consequence of skating an entire country over the ice on the cheap with no safety wire.

[QUINNSCOMMENTARY]

Originally Posted by spot

On an average night of the year, across the whole of the USA, by reason of poverty, of the order of a million people sleep rough, outdoors, and a couple of million more are in charitable hostels or temporary shelter. You just don't want to think about it. It's a hell of a distance from "our poor have cable tv and air conditioning", you simply refuse to look at the dark side of free enterprise and the consequence of skating an entire country over the ice on the cheap with no safety wire.

Not sure of your point here and I don't know if your numbers are right or not, but if they are that is about 1/3 of 1% of the population at any given point and many of the so called homeless are in a temporary state. And as has ben said the vast majority of our "poor" by definition have their own home, one or more TVs, cars and a lot of other stuff one would not normally attribute to a poor person.

It would be wonderful if there were no poverty or homelessness and it is a worthy goal, but it will never, ever happen in the US or any other country for that matter and certainly the way to cure such faults in society cannot be simply for society to pick people up and carry them forever.

Others in the world may be content to focus on equalization of theitr societies, but I think Americans would go nuts if they did not have the opportunity for personal achievement and success however you want to define it and all the competition that goes with it.

It is not that our system could not fix the problem of the homeless or poor, it is that people simply do not care enough to fix it or it is not perceived as a real problem.

Regardless of the political or social system in place, human behavior prevails. And, I dare say all those people in the world who live in a society where they know no different given a taste of the total picture in America whould welcome giving our system a chance. There certainly are enough people who try each year and no, I am not talking about Mexicans.

[spot]

Originally Posted by QUINNSCOMMENTARY

Not sure of your point here and I don't know if your numbers are right or not

1 - I was responding to the outrageous "Our poor have cable tv and air conditioning" comment.

2 - Nobody would be more delighted than I were you to find an authoritative count. Your government seems to believe that uncounted means unreal, rather like excess deaths in Iraq.

[gmc]

Originally Posted by Lon

For the same reason that knickers, lift, boot etc. as used in the U.S. have entirely different meanings. You know that.

Yes I know that. It's ironic that in a country supposedly founded on liberal principles the very word and the ideals it represents has been corrupted, not by those who support such principles but by the opponents of it. Right from the first foundation of a government of the people for the people you've been arguing about who the people are that are entitled to have a say and exactly what they are entitled to expect. Seems to me that those who would rule have succeeded in convincing the electorate that they should be allowed to rule without hindrance from any elected body to check their behaviour. In europe and the rest of the world Socialism is part of a mass movement from the ground roots of society for a greater say in how society is run, communism is actually a rather small part of that and a dead end but is a bogey man used in the states to stifle any real dialogue about what is fair in society.

OK I'm an outsider and I have an odd viewpoint-you're right it is a bit of a hobby horse- and I don't know enough about american politics to actually be able to hold my own in a discussion so i won't mention it again.

Found this though

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/pr...ou/washs01.htm

george washington

By convincing those who are entrusted with the publick administration, that every valuable end of government is best answered by the enlightened confidence of the people: And by teaching the people themselves to know, and to value their own rights; to discern and provide against invasions of them; to distinguish between oppression and the necessary exercise of lawful authority; between burthens proceeding from a disregard to their convenience, and those resulting from the inevitable exigencies of society; to discriminate the spirit of liberty from that of licentiousness, cherishing the first, avoiding the last, and uniting a speedy, but temperate vigilance against encroachments, with an inviolable respect to the laws.

Whether this desirable object will be best promoted by affording aids to seminaries of learning already established, by the institution of a national university, or by any other expedients, will be well worthy of a place in the deliberations of the Legislature.


Gentlemen of the Senate, and House of Representatives,

I have directed the proper officers to lay before you respectively such papers and estimates as regards the affairs particularly recommended to your consideration, and necessary to convey to you that information of the state of the union, which it is my duty to afford.

The welfare of our country is the great object to which our cares and efforts ought to be directed.-- And I shall derive great satisfaction from a cooperation with you, in the pleasing though arduous task of ensuring to our fellow citizens the blessings which they have a right to expect, from a free and equal government.

What is happening in america is not socialism in any shape or form. It is the political elite bailing out their friends in the financial sector who they let have free rein and who couldn't tell the difference between free markets and a free for all.

They've had a bean feast and now everybody else is expected to pick up the tab while they walk away with no responsibility for the mess. Now they're shitting themselves in fear in case congress says no.

[Lon]

Originally Posted by gmc

Yes I know that. It's ironic that in a country supposedly founded on liberal principles the very word and the ideals it represents has been corrupted, not by those who support such principles but by the opponents of it. Right from the first foundation of a government of the people for the people you've been arguing about who the people are that are entitled to have a say and exactly what they are entitled to expect. Seems to me that those who would rule have succeeded in convincing the electorate that they should be allowed to rule without hindrance from any elected body to check their behaviour. In europe and the rest of the world Socialism is part of a mass movement from the ground roots of society for a greater say in how society is run, communism is actually a rather small part of that and a dead end but is a bogey man used in the states to stifle any real dialogue about what is fair in society.

OK I'm an outsider and I have an odd viewpoint-you're right it is a bit of a hobby horse- and I don't know enough about american politics to actually be able to hold my own in a discussion so i won't mention it again.

Found this though

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/pr...ou/washs01.htm

george washington


What is happening in america is not socialism in any shape or form. It is the political elite bailing out their friends in the financial sector who they let have free rein and who couldn't tell the difference between free markets and a free for all.

They've had a bean feast and now everybody else is expected to pick up the tab while they walk away with no responsibility for the mess. Now they're shitting themselves in fear in case congress says no.

The average American has no clue as to the different kinds of socialism and tends to equate it with communism. I have spent a good part of the past 20 years in Australia and New Zealand and had my previous fears and misunderstandings of socialism dispelled.

As for the English language, I'm afraid that with increased texting, and what's seems to be youth's inability to make themselves understood to anyone other than their peer group, the English language as I knew it as a youth will go the way of the Do Do Bird.