We are All Socialist at Heart…it’s easier

[QUINNSCOMMENTARY]

According to the Wall Street Journal (May 4, 2009) a recent Rasmussen Reports poll shows only 53% of Americans prefer capitalism to socialism; 27% were unsure and 20% preferred socialism. That may explain the results of the last election.

Assuming, of course, Americans ever felt differently, what happended?

Socialism is easier, it’s that simple. Look at it this way, once you get used to paying more than half of your income in taxes to the government, your worries are over. You don’t know or care that the money is spent inefficiently or that you have turned over control of a large part of your life to the state, all you know is that you don’t have to worry any more about health care, retirement income, education, child care, disability or unemployment. It’s all quite appealing is it not?

Nobody has to be an ant, we can all be grasshoppers. Why work hard, just work hard enough to pay your taxes and save a little energy to march from time to time in a protest to preserve your benefits at all cost.

Your 401(k) plan is in the tank, who cares, you have a good government pension. Your employer is screwing you and taking away your health care that you thought would be part of your future retirement, so what? You bust your butt to work hard and save more, no need, half of what you make is gone before you have it so why bother? There is always someone else to worry about where the money is coming from and of course, that 50% tax rate can always go up.

There are added benefits too, we are all equal. The mediocre among us no longer stand out, the slackers are no longer at risk and the real achievers; well they may get to pay 70% of their income in taxes.

Socialism is so easy I think more and more Americans will conclude, hey why not? There is one big test coming up and that is health care. Keep your ears open and listen to how many people you hear say they want “free” health care from the government.

Socialism is not only easy, it can also be free.

[Rapunzel]

Originally Posted by QUINNSCOMMENTARY

Keep your ears open and listen to how many people you hear say they want “free” health care from the government.

Socialism is not only easy, it can also be free.

I know you're only quoting an article Quinn, but there is nothing wrong with wanting "free" healthcare IMO. I know its not 'free'. I know many people pay for it in taxes and don't get their monies worth - yet. But as people get older they WILL need additional healthcare and, being sick, they won't be able to afford that healthcare longterm.

There are many films and stories that come from the US which tell us how mad your healthcare system is. Look at the film by Denzil Washington where his son needs a heart transplant - only they never told DW because his healthcare plan didn't cover it! So DW holds the doctors hostage and forces them to take his own heart to give to his son. I think it's called John Q. There is another film with Will Smith called The Persuit of Happyness about a man forced to live on the streets with his young son and yet another with Mare Winningham living on the streets with her young daughter. I also recall the story of a Medical Company who wouldn't give a man $500,000 he needed for treatment to save his life yet at the same time they spent $500,000 on a statue for the foyer of their new medical building. The stories come thick and fast to show how tough things are without a "free" healthcare system.

Yes, our system is abused, but at least we can all receive the treatment we need under the NHS (National Health Service). People who need brainsurgery or transplants or homes to live in will go on waiting lists but they will get them in the end. And they will get temporary accomodation until then. My friends daughter needed emergency surgery in LA and her healthcare system refused to cover her again afterwards. So my friend brought her home to the UK (after splitting with her hubby). Once home, her daughter unexpectedly needed the same treatment again and received it...for "free".

I pay over £100 per month in Council Tax. It seems a waste and yes all councils waste money, but if I didn't pay it I wouldn't be able to call the Police or Fire Department or Ambulance when I was in need. There wouldn't be tarmaced roads for them to drive on to reach me. And I wouldn't have my rubbish and recycling collected each week.

But out of everything we have, I think our "free" healthcare system is the best. Without them my baby son wouldn't have had 2 years of "free" kidney scans or a "free" life-saving operation when he was born and my baby daughter wouldn't have been put on a "free" life-support machine or given "free" medicine that cost the doctors about £100 per week for about 10 years and I wouldn't be given "free" medication because I'm diabetic, which means my medication will be "free" for the rest of my life.

Without our healthcare system, my babies would all be dead and probably so would I. We owe them our lives and I'm very glad my taxes help keep them free.

My heart cries in pain when I see how badly so many US citizens are treated because they cannot get the treatment they want or need because their healthcare systems won't allow it. In a civilised world it is so unfair. Or to see people so ill they have to sell their houses to pay for their treatment and then they have nowhere to rest or recover because their home is gone.

It's all very well to knock people for being sheep, but what is wrong with having healthcare when you're sick? what is wrong with having an education for your children? what is wrong with having a retirement income when you're too old to work and what is wrong with having unemployment benefits when you're unexpectedly out of work and don't want to be living rough on the streets with your family?

Socialism isn't easy and life isn't free. Life is about choices. And most people choose to protect their families and keep out of jail simply by paying their taxes. It's not a great system, no system is, but it's better than having nothing. At least we have help when we're in need.

Sorry to jump down your throat over this.

[Snowfire]

It seems to me that our health care system here in the UK has been the envy of the world since its inception, yet Americans seem to be terrified of its introduction, feeling that it would be the first step to socialism.

We are by no means the only country in the world to have a social health system, it at least provides those who can least afford it, a decent level of health care without resorting to giving your hard earned to some thieving insurance company - cos that is in effect what they are when they find any excuse they can for not weighing out.

Doesnt Canada have such a health system ? They havent done so bad as a country. I dont see them slipping into some crypto communist/marxist/socialist/call-it-what-you-like quagmire that some would have us believe.

As Rap points out, its hardly free. It just takes the decisions about your health away from a huge faceless medical insurance company, who's first priority is profit, first and foremost and gives the individual the piece of mind. Its not a criticism of America's health system but of the way it leaves behind the vulnerable who can least afford it

[gmc]

The debates' kind of moved on. Capitalism and socialism are no longer seen as mutually exclusive-most european countries have mixed economies with-for instance-things like healthcare run on a socialised basis funded by those employed in a capitalist economy. It's only the extreme left that hang on to the notion everything should be state owned-that has been shown not to really work, and it's only the extreme right that want to privatise everything.

Even the progenitor of capitalism puts a case that some things were too important to be left to private enterprise. Education he thought was a matter for the state as it led to the betterment of society as a whole and also a more stable one as educated people re less inclined to follow demagogues blindly.

That you choose a system where people are left to die because they are too poor to pay for medical care or people put off going to the doctor or dentist for fear of the cost is bizarre. But it's your choice.

posted by quinns commentary

There is one big test coming up and that is health care. Keep your ears open and listen to how many people you hear say they want “free” health care from the government.

Do you not underestimate your fellow americans I'm sure most of then don't think they will get it for nothing. besides if they do decide they want it it's the price you pay for living in a democracy-sometimes you don't get your own way. After all they've had to put up with not having universal healthcare.

From what i can gather I think americans pay about the same in taxes as we do-but then on top of that they have t pay for medical care. I've paid for the NHS all my working life and only used it on a couple of times-but it's there if I need it and the only issue will be what treatment I need-to me that is priceless. Right now I am paying for someone else's hospital treatment if you want to look at it that way.

[Accountable]

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

There are many films and stories that come from the US which tell us how mad your healthcare system is. Look at the film by Denzil Washington where his son needs a heart transplant - only they never told DW because his healthcare plan didn't cover it! So DW holds the doctors hostage and forces them to take his own heart to give to his son. I think it's called John Q. There is another film with Will Smith called The Persuit of Happyness about a man forced to live on the streets with his young son and yet another with Mare Winningham living on the streets with her young daughter. I also recall the story of a Medical Company who wouldn't give a man $500,000 he needed for treatment to save his life yet at the same time they spent $500,000 on a statue for the foyer of their new medical building. The stories come thick and fast to show how tough things are without a "free" healthcare system.

John Q is pure fiction. I'm not familiar with the Winningham story or the medical company. Most fiction exaggerates the truth and ignores or changes facts when they aren't convenient. They also use rare or unique instances; common occurrences just aren't interesting.

The Persuit of Happyness is a true story of a man who took foolish chances with his life and the life of his son, but was able to triumph and make millions - giving his son a far better life than the mediocre one you seem to recommend. We celebrate such spirit here in the US. It is American, and many of us don't want to lose it. Such a spirit - and the ingenuity that goes with it - would be killed if a child were raised to depend on the government rather than himself.

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

Socialism isn't easy and life isn't free. Life is about choices. And most people choose to protect their families and keep out of jail simply by paying their taxes. It's not a great system, no system is, but it's better than having nothing. At least we have help when we're in need.

What you describe in this paragraph is living in fear, and that's no way to live. Exist, yes, but not live.

[spot]

Originally Posted by QUINNSCOMMENTARY

Socialism is so easy I think more and more Americans will conclude, hey why not? There is one big test coming up and that is health care. Keep your ears open and listen to how many people you hear say they want “free” health care from the government.

I do hope so. You might be right.

I'lll give you a working definition of Socialism to contrast with the excessive wealth of the minority which the US currently practices: socialism is the pursuit of the greatest good for the greatest number, with the restriction that it guarantees fairness to all. Fairness certainly doesn't include the option to grow grotesquely rich just because you're good at it.

Originally Posted by QUINNSCOMMENTARY

The mediocre among us no longer stand out, the slackers are no longer at risk and the real achievers; well they may get to pay 70% of their income in taxes.

Would you like to tell me a country which has a top income tax band of 70% or higher? I don't know of one off-hand. The UK has practiced socialist governance continuously for the last sixty years and our top income tax bracket increases to 50% next year.

A couple of years ago on FG we worked out estimates for the amount of gross personal income paid as taxation in all forms, income and sales and housing, local and national, for low, middle and high earners in both the UK and US, all the answers drifted down from 50% to 40% as people earned more. The main conclusion was that low earners had very little choice-disposable income after bare living costs were taken from the remainder.

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by Accountable

It is American, and many of us don't want to lose it. Such a spirit - and the ingenuity that goes with it - would be killed if a child were raised to depend on the government rather than himself.

Do you really see social health as depending on the goverment ? I see it as taking the health care decisions away from Health insurance companies and their "profit first" attitude and back into the hospital. I dont see that as breaking the American spirit at all. Just socially reponsible

[QUINNSCOMMENTARY]

I don't know how this got on health care in America that was not the original point.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about health care in America. I have worked with health plans and written about the subject and administered corporate plans for over 45 years so I could go on forever and at some point I will as the current administration is again headed in the wrong direction, but that's another debate.

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by QUINNSCOMMENTARY

I don't know how this got on health care in America that was not the original point.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about health care in America. I have worked with health plans and written about the subject and administered corporate plans for over 45 years so I could go on forever and at some point I will as the current administration is again headed in the wrong direction, but that's another debate.

I think your last paragraph was important enough to comment on. Since you used it as an example as the creeping in of socialism. What I am saying is, is that social health care, isnt the big bad boogie man that I think your infering and its not free

Originally Posted by QUINNSCOMMENTARY

Socialism is so easy I think more and more Americans will conclude, hey why not? There is one big test coming up and that is health care. Keep your ears open and listen to how many people you hear say they want “free” health care from the government.

Socialism is not only easy, it can also be free.

[QUINNSCOMMENTARY]

I'lll give you a working definition of Socialism to contrast with the excessive wealth of the minority which the US currently practices: socialism is the pursuit of the greatest good for the greatest number, with the restriction that it guarantees fairness to all. Fairness certainly doesn't include the option to grow grotesquely rich just because you're good at it.

I find that defining "fairness" as meaning that those who can achieve above the norm are prevented from doing so rather disturbing. So what we are saying is that each person should strive to achieve only up to the norm for the majority? So, despite the fact he created tens and perhaps hundreds of thousands of jobs world-wide, Bill Gates who I assume qualifies as grotesquely rich should not have that option, not to mention that he is now using that wealth to help humanity in a much more efficient manner than any government. Sorry, I just don't get it.

Would you like to tell me a country which has a top income tax band of 70% or higher? I don't know of one off-hand. The UK has practiced socialist governance continuously for the last sixty years and our top income tax bracket increases to 50% next year.

Okay, that was an illustration; at the moment the highest I found was 60% but if you add the VAT in many cases you hit the 70% in a few countries and if you broaden the definition of income tax in, say France you have no trouble hitting it. No matter what you call it, it's a tax and lowers ones net income.