Slavery can be a Good Thing

[K.Snyder]

Originally Posted by QUINNSCOMMENTARY

It is difficult to have a debate with someone who is so tainted in their view they cannot view anything objectively. Your view is that someone said forcing people into slavery benefits their next generation as if there is a suggestion that is a justification for slavery. Certainly that is not the case and no suggestion of that kind was made. What I was trying to note is the unintended consequence of slavery. I seriously doubt that the many successful black Americans would find themselves in the same situation today as they do if there were no such thing as slavery, for that to occur millions of Africans would have had to immigrate to the US beginning at least in the mid 19th century. Do you truly believe that was a real possibility?

To be honest I completely understand where you're coming from but technically the concept is moot...

You see, the descendants of those slaves are American. They have African heritage, but are American and so ye cannot say to them as ye shalt not say to others. They're American that benefit from certain issues in the society they live in now at present in the same way they do not benefit from certain issues in that very same society.

What's left is the effects of prejudices induced by those to whom are the neighbors of those effected.

What you're really saying is that America is more fruitful of a country than Africa speaking in terms of overall perspective. I don't know of anyone that could disagree.

[K.Snyder]

Originally Posted by K.Snyder

To be honest I completely understand where you're coming from but technically the concept is moot...

You see, the descendants of those slaves are American. They have African heritage, but are American and so ye cannot say to them as ye shalt not say to others. They're American that benefit from certain issues in the society they live in now at present in the same way they do not benefit from certain issues in that very same society.

What's left is the effects of prejudices induced by those to whom are the neighbors of those effected.

What you're really saying is that America is more fruitful of a country than Africa speaking in terms of overall perspective. I don't know of anyone that could disagree.

I understand the next argument is that African Americans, for the most part, would not be in America if it hadn't been for slavery but the fact that African population rates would have no significance for the greater whatsoever to the idea renders the entire conjecture non conformative...Philosophically speaking...It's no different than saying out right that America is more fruitful than every country that's seen a citizen of those very same countries in question migrate to America...

The only relevancy to the concept of "Slavery can be a good thing" is the time frame during slavery itself which renders the concept void of "Slavery can be a good thing" giving credence to "Is slavery worth the sacrifice"...Very simple in my mind. It most certainly is not considering the determining factor throughout the entire conjecture is whether or not those enslaved understands the difference between themselves and what they could have been had they not been enslaved.

[Accountable]

Originally Posted by wildhorses

It makes my skin crawl that you or anyone else would think that forcing people into slavery benefits their next generation. Especially when the original victims could have accomplished the same destination on their own and under much better circumstances.

Good Lord! Get off your high horse a sec, will ya? The people forcing people into slavery didn't give a tinker's damn about any future benefits or anything else. What Quinn said was that it appears that the benefit ocurred. No judgment, guilt alleviation, justification, or anything else. Just a simple observation.

Here's a similar observation: WWII leveled so many old and obsolete factories that Germany was able to modernize more quickly than the US, which still had old facilities.

See? No declaration that Naziism was justified or war is good. Just a simple observation.

Now, shake hands and find a neutral corner.

[wildhorses]

Originally Posted by Accountable

Good Lord! Get off your high horse a sec, will ya? The people forcing people into slavery didn't give a tinker's damn about any future benefits or anything else. What Quinn said was that it appears that the benefit ocurred. No judgment, guilt alleviation, justification, or anything else. Just a simple observation.

Here's a similar observation: WWII leveled so many old and obsolete factories that Germany was able to modernize more quickly than the US, which still had old facilities.

See? No declaration that Naziism was justified or war is good. Just a simple observation.

Now, shake hands and find a neutral corner.

The point is that the benefit could have occurred anyway....if they were left alone. And if you don't like the fight....stay out of the ring.

[Accountable]

Originally Posted by wildhorses

The point is that the benefit could have occurred anyway....if they were left alone. And if you don't like the fight....stay out of the ring.

The point is they weren't left alone, and despite that, it happened anyway.

The neutral corner line was because you don't seem to notice you're both on the same side.

[wildhorses]

Originally Posted by Accountable

The point is they weren't left alone, and despite that, it happened anyway.

The neutral corner line was because you don't seem to notice you're both on the same side.

We are not on the same side. The argument that somehow decendents of slavery benefitted from the slavery of their ancestors is VERY COMMONLY used by those whites who feel guilty about it. Even though they have no reason to feel that way. As if to detract from the event of slavery by highlighting the "benefit" of their decendents. By Quinn's logic you could also say that slave masters would not have gotten rich without slaves....and therefore there is some benefit to slavery. Slaves and their decendents are separate people.

OK so I just want to say this one more time.

Victims of slavery could have come to this country like everyone else....and many probably would have...in fact many did. Their children could have been born free. Their decendents could have been doing everything they have done. Quinn assumes that none of these decendents would have immigrated to America. And so he claims they would still be in Africa and would be worse off.

The point of Quinn's comment was not that they were not left alone as you assert. Because he states that IF THEY WERE LEFT ALONE THEY WOULD BE WORSE OFF AS THEY WOULD BE IN AFRICA. So it seems that his comments revolve around what would have happened if they WERE left alone. And if they were left alone many would have immigrated here like everone else.

So we are not on the same side as follows:

Quinn: If Africans were not forced into slavery then their decendents would be worse off as they would all be in Africa.

Me: If Africans were not forced into slavery then they would have immigrated here like everyone else and their decendents would still have been born here.

[oscar]

As some-one with an interest in the sponsering of African children through school (we have put two through), there is no doubt that parts of Africa, due to drought, famine etc i.e Chad, Ethiopia, will always be third world countrie's and need Western help.
The area's were slaves were taken from (Without consulting my books) were the more productive are'a of Africa.
It is only sense that the slave captors would not have taken Africans suffering from starvation and disease. The area's they took from were self sufficient and by modern day, those Africans, would have education, jobs and a plane ticket to America if they wanted it.

[wildhorses]

Originally Posted by oscar

As some-one with an interest in the sponsering of African children through school (we have put two through), there is no doubt that parts of Africa, due to drought, famine etc i.e Chad, Ethiopia, will always be third world countrie's and need Western help.
The area's were slaves were taken from (Without consulting my books) were the more productive are'a of Africa.
It is only sense that the slave captors would not have taken Africans suffering from starvation and disease. The area's they took from were self sufficient and by modern day, those Africans, would have education, jobs and a plane ticket to America if they wanted it.

I don't even think they would require a ticket. People from other countries show up in boats here all the time. Not really commerical boats. And they are people who really have nothing at all. I don't think Africans at the time would necessarily have to be educated to get here....they would just have to know the country was here. Some have come from Cuba on inner tubes even....not even in a boat. I hear the Aussies are always turning away boatloads of people. In the 1980's refugees came here on boats from Viet Nam. Everyone called them the "boat people" for that reason. They managed to come here on rickety little boats that you would not even think they were sea worthy...just to look at them.

[QUINNSCOMMENTARY]

What you're really saying is that America is more fruitful of a country than Africa speaking in terms of overall perspective. I don't know of anyone that could disagree.

That is essentially what I am saying and that slavery was a perverse way of allowing millions of people to take advantage of that fact, just as my ancestors took advantage of it on a voluntary basis (if you consider the Irish famine totally voluntary, of course). Africa is not a country of course but is made up of many countries but I know of none where the opportunities come close to what we have even in light of ongoing prejudice and racism which by the way exists in every country and sadly will continue to exist in the world forever.

[QUINNSCOMMENTARY]

Me: If Africans were not forced into slavery then they would have immigrated here like everyone else and their descendants would still have been born here.

Really, there are 33.1 million immigrants living in the US, It is estimated that the current population of African Immigrants is 600,000. Does that probability you speak of sound realistic in light of the fact that immigrants from the entire continent of Africa today only equal 0.018 of the entire immigrant population? I suspect that in the last century the percentage was even lower.