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Thread: The problem with the English

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    The problem with the English

    Worth a read I think. No it's not from the only pro independence paper in scotland

    The problem with the English: England doesn’t want to be just another member of a team | Latest Brexit news and top stories - The New European

    Hence the paradox that the political party that exists to express fear of the EU represents itself as an Independence Party for the United Kingdom, but its entire affective vocabulary, its cultural, historical, and mythical points of reference are English, and it has virtually no following in Scotland or Northern Ireland: in the 2015 general election UKIP won 14% of the vote in England, but only 2.6% in Northern Ireland and 1.6% in Scotland.
    The referendum vote does not deserve to be respected because, as an outgrowth of English narcissism, it is itself disrespectful of others, of our allies, partners, neighbours, friends, and, in many cases, even relatives. Like resentful ruffians uprooting the new trees in the park and trashing the new play area, millions of English, the lager louts of Europe, voted for Brexit in an act of geopolitical vandalism.

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    Re: The problem with the English

    There's people like me who accept that the Empire ended before I was born - long before I was born - and have no expectations on that basis and are usually but not always Remain voters. For us, the special thing about the UK has always been that we are an association of four nations and the EU was just an extension of that sense. I have relatives in one and family legend says we originate in another...

    Brexiters aren't like that, don't have that sense, and are the people other nations rightly object to. Usually no issue can unite them, but a good lie from skilled deceivers is far more effective than I had realised, since it got a lot of left wing people to vote for a far right project and insist to this day they didn't.
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    Re: The problem with the English

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    There's people like me who accept that the Empire ended before I was born - long before I was born - and have no expectations on that basis and are usually but not always Remain voters. For us, the special thing about the UK has always been that we are an association of four nations and the EU was just an extension of that sense. I have relatives in one and family legend says we originate in another...

    Brexiters aren't like that, don't have that sense, and are the people other nations rightly object to. Usually no issue can unite them, but a good lie from skilled deceivers is far more effective than I had realised, since it got a lot of left wing people to vote for a far right project and insist to this day they didn't.
    Why is it that Remainers always refer to Brexit as a Right Wing thing. You should recall that both Labour AND Tory took the Official Policy of Remain, with BOTH sides campaigning to Remain. However, in spite of all that campaigning & illegal Remain Propaganda being published at the expense of the Taxpayer the majority of the public still voted to Leave. Doesn't that indicate how out of touch BOTH sides were with the Public view.

    Remainers always complain about their views, as a minority, not being heard when demanding a 2nd Referendum after the first one didn't go their way. Well what about the views of the majority not being listened to if they were to bow to those demands? You can't have it both ways.

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    Re: The problem with the English

    Brexit is backed by the fascists such as the group Trump retweeted. There's no evidence of a Remain supporting fascist group. All fascists seem to support brexit and it makes sense for them since the EU does not allow suppression of the freedom of the Press or gov't control of the judiciary, for example. Poland in trouble over this sort of thing now. The leaders of the brexit movement in Parliament are from the far right of the tory party. Davis, Johnson, Gove - all right wing tories. Then we have the right wing tory press - all pro brexit. Find me a Remain right wing mainstream paper. The Guardian is left wing and pro-Remain. The racists all voted brexit by definition because they are not going to vote for a multicultural multiracial organisation like the EU. So we have brexit backed by the far right of the tories, the far left of labour, the fascists and the racists. It happens that the far right of the tory party are in control of brexit (and the government to a very large extent) So I refer to it as a right wing thing because it is being run by right wingers for far right wing purposes and these people are doing everything they can to get control of the process of converting EU law - 49 years of it - to English law which would allow them to rewrite that law to suit their far right purposes. That's Employment Law, Health and Safety, Holidays, Working Time and so on.

    It's not a case of they could do this or might do this, they are doing it now. They have the power to rewrite EU law coming into English law without consulting Parliament. Every government minister has the power to rewrite EU law as suits the minister best, come brexit. That's Hunt in Health. Yippee. Brexit doesn't have to be a right wing project but it is, because it's being run and backed by the far right. Davis is far right. Johnson is far right. Fox is far right.

    UKIP was infiltrated by the BNP as we know - Farage is up Trump's bum - he's not left wing or even moderate right if he's there. The main popular brexit group - UKIP - was infiltrated by the BNP and led by far right people: Farage, Banks, that sort.

    It is true that the extreme left also want brexit since they could probably not put their economic reforms into place under EU rules. As things have turned out it's the rolling eyed loons on the far right of the tory party who have ended up running brexit. People like Rees-Mogg, and Redwood, Duncan-Smith and Hunt running the brexit government. This gov't has far right people in the brexit posts, brexit is backed by the fascists and the racists, the right wing press and a load of people who thought voting for this would somehow result in a non far right outcome instead of a low tax low service offshore state. No NHS worth the name, ditto pension, ditto benefits. Work the hours and under the conditions your employers sets or starve. Don't get sick, it's expensive. Oh, jobs have all gone from your area as companies leave as we leave the single market and you take a 10 to 17% cut in revenue depending which area you are outside London (leaked gov't figures). What services in your areas do you want to give up to make up the shortfall?

    Oh and incidentally that's me quoting a government forecast (10-17%). If it's wrong I'm not lying, just wrong. That's the Remain situation regarding the campaign: Mostly what we said is pretty much being borne out by events - brexit WILL be economically devastating for no gain except this sovereignty brexiters suddenly claim to find so important which we will be immediately giving away to other countries since every trade deal - every agreement between States - is a dilution of your right to act as you wish, aka sovereignty. Quoting a forecast and being wrong is one thing; claiming that we can have our cake and eat it isn't a government forecast it's either incredibly stupid or an outright lie. Ditto claiming that negotiating a trade deal would be easy - the easiest ever, according to Gove, iirc. Ditto claiming we hold all the cards and that brexit would be easy and we'd all be freer and better off. Lies, lies, lies, or incredibly, appallingly stupid. With the exception of Davis, these are not people that stupid. I say they lied and knew it. They set out to deceive and knew it. Heck, Johnson was just positioning himself for a leadership bid and doesn't even believe in brexit! The end justifies the means...for fascists.

    For Heaven's sake, it's not as if Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Redwood, IDS and Davis have suddenly appeared from nowhere: they fronted the Leave Campaign, with Farage. Everyone knew they were pro brexit and they were GOING to run brexit if brexit won since the tories already had a majority and no need to call an election. May actually choosing to have an election was unexpected, as well as backfiring. Even so they are STILL running brexit.

    And there's the connection with US far right charities like that Cambridge Analytics, or Banks' illegal bot farm, or the whistleblower claiming BeLeave was a cheat to raise and/or launder extra money for the Leave Campaign. Let's not forget the spike in race hate crime that happened just after the referendum results were known as your fellow brexiters got out there and committed race hate crimes and murdered Jo Cox.

    As for leaving, we are going to, unless it can be legally and democratically stopped. If we have a 2nd referendum and it goes the Remain way that is democratic. If we Leave I may well do the same and leave you to fester in the hell you have created. You know Fox will sign any trade deal whatever and claim it as a triumph, backed by all those far right newspapers. Every one we know of so far has said increased freedom of movement is a top demand in return for a deal.

    In short, I call it a far right movement because it is backed by the fascists, the racists, the far right of the tory party and is being run by the far right of the tory party. I do not think these people will deliver a socialist brexit. There are left wing brexiters but they aren't running brexit and have no influence on the outcome.

    Minorities should not be pushed too far or there is always trouble. That's especially true when there is very small difference in numbers between the majority and the minority. In this case what was it? 4% We're not talking 70-30, we're talking 52-48. So if you want support from brexit for Remainers we have to have something we CAN support and we can't support hard brexit. Since it has apparently been ruled out that we do anything but leave completely I see nothing to support. So I don't support it. Since I believe it is an unmitigated disaster I oppose it since I do not wish to see the much more widespread poverty, the degradation of our health and the devastation of our country, especially the rural areas, which brexit will bring.

    The interesting matter in parliament is that there are some in many parties who are showing signs of putting country ahead of party and attacking the abuses inherent in brexit. Whether they become an organised grouping who will act is another thing. Lord Adonis, Anna Soubry, Chuka Umunna will bear watching in this regard.

    And I haven't even started on Putin. Why is it so many brexiters are apologists for him?
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    Re: The problem with the English

    Quote Originally Posted by FourPart View Post
    Why is it that Remainers always refer to Brexit as a Right Wing thing. You should recall that both Labour AND Tory took the Official Policy of Remain, with BOTH sides campaigning to Remain. However, in spite of all that campaigning & illegal Remain Propaganda being published at the expense of the Taxpayer the majority of the public still voted to Leave. Doesn't that indicate how out of touch BOTH sides were with the Public view.

    Remainers always complain about their views, as a minority, not being heard when demanding a 2nd Referendum after the first one didn't go their way. Well what about the views of the majority not being listened to if they were to bow to those demands? You can't have it both ways.
    Excuse me, it's the Leave side that are being pulled up for illegal spending in their election campaign.

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    Re: The problem with the English

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr View Post
    Excuse me, it's the Leave side that are being pulled up for illegal spending in their election campaign.
    TWO whistle blowers on this now? The one with pink hair who is in front of the Electoral Commission and the outed gay who has turned up with a similar story? This really stinks. Provable? Dunno.

    I'm torn on this. On the one hand there's the fact they have blown the whistle and are giving evidence of serious election malpractice; on the other is that they WORKED for brexit and that puts them high up my list of Who Gets Loaded into the Trebuchet and Fired into the Lake.
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    Re: The problem with the English

    History seems to be repeating itself.

    Madrid has carried out a coup – and it directly affects Scotland | George Kerevan | The National

    ON August 13, 1940, Lluis Companys, the exiled president of the Catalan Republic, was arrested in occupied France by German security forces, on a warrant issued by the Francoist government in Madrid. Companys was deported to Spain where he was tortured, then put on trial (for a whole hour) on charges of “rebellion”.

    He was shot by firing squad, the highest-ranking, incumbent elected politician executed during the Second World War. To this day, no Spanish government has annulled this iniquitous verdict or any others of a similar nature, far less put any Francoist on trial.

    Yesterday, the exiled, deposed president of Catalonia, Carles Puigdemont, was arrested by German security forces, on a European warrant issued by the neo-Francoist Popular Party government in Madrid.

    Like Companys before him, Puigdemont is (literally) charged with “rebellion”, for organising a democratic referendum on Catalan independence last October.
    Except this time the fascists are in the UK and takibng over the government. We have a parliamentary democracy sadly many brexiteers don't seem to understand that means our MP's supposedly have the final say and referenda are advisory not mandatory. I can see scotland having another referendum in the teeth of opposition from westminster.

    I was curious to see what you thought not being english myself or indeed perhaps not even anglo-saxon. The UK has always been multicultural and that is arguably one of it's greatest strengths what annoys me about the brexiteers is the narrowness of their vision and fear of the world and the future they exhibit despite all the patriotic rhetoric they spout.

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    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
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    Re: The problem with the English

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr View Post
    Excuse me, it's the Leave side that are being pulled up for illegal spending in their election campaign.
    It was the Remain side that were blatantly publishing Remain Propaganda at the Tax Payer's expense.
    I received a copy, and despite claiming to be an "Information Booklet", it was as unbiased as a Party Election Leaflet.
    It was later ruled that this booklet broke the rules laid down & was deemed illegal. This, however, was, of course, brushed under the carpet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ublicity-blitz

    As for the Far Right backing Brexit - of course they do, but that's because they have their own Racist Agenda. The previous post implies that everybody who is pro Brexit is so because they are Far Right & accordingly Racist. Well, I for one take affront to that. I am very Left of Centre, a total Corbynist, far from being Racist (in fact, most of those I socialise with happen to be Muslim), and am very much Pro-Brexit. The Remainers like to put across the image that to be Pro-Brexit is to be Racist & that the two are one & the same. Well they are most definitely not. You argument is on a par with the one that says "I have a white dog. My neighbour has a black dog. Ny neighbour's black dog has fleas. Therefore he has fleas because he is black & all therefore all black dogs have fleas".

    As far as Right Wing Media is concerned. Nearly all the Media is owned by the same few oligarchical "Patriot" owners who live offshore as Tax Exiles, paying absolutely nothing into the UK Treasury. They are bound to be Right Wing. They are the epitome of the Tory Fat Cats.

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    Re: The problem with the English

    Your vote empowered racism. Police figures prove it.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7829551.html

    That's the short version. You can look out the official Home Office version if you like...

    You personally, may have moderate reasonable reasons for being anti EU to the extent of leaving it, hard though I find that to believe (moderate and reasonable for leaving? Come on...). Unfortunately your personally innocent beliefs coincide with the beliefs of a lot of very nasty people, from the far right of the tory party and further right. They are running brexit, not you. None of you moderate leavers have any effect other than to further the far right agenda because your moderate brexit never existed except in the agendas of Cambridge Analytics. You aren't getting the brexit you dreamed of, you are getting the one of the far right of the tory party and worse and you are continuing to support it, like a German in the 1920's. Next you'll be telling me it's my patriotic duty to support brexit.

    The media oligarchs backed brexit. All the populists did. Lied through their teeth like good graduates from the Rupert Murdoch School of Exuberant Journalists. Big money backs brexit. For them, not us.
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    Re: The problem with the English

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    I have yet to see moderate reasonable reasons for leaving the eu. In my experience the whole brexit argument devolves down to" just because" and I don't like foreigners. I would accept the result if a second referendum still wanted to leave, I don;t think it will which is priobably why the brexiteers will do their best to stop it. Fargafe stated before the refrerendum that they would not accept a close remain vote, poor soul he might lose his eu pension if the uk refuses to pay any divorce bill. Unemployed no pension you have to feel for him.

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