Is It All Just An illusion?

Post by **jones jones** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:11 am

Personally I have very little faith in the mental health profession which is euphemistically known as “the listening profession.” My contempt for this “profession” includes psychiatric clinics and similar facilities which were once known, and perhaps still are known, as lunatic asylums.

My attitude towards these people & facilities stems firstly from first hand experience and secondly from my own research conducted over a period of time. Terms like “manic depression” aka bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia etc are tossed about in gay abandon by men and women with degrees & qualifications bestowed upon them by institutions of learning.

Apparently in the United States psychiatrists are trained as general physicians first followed by an internship in a hospital or clinical setting. Like being trained as a general physician qualifies you to diagnose mental illness. Then after these earthlings have most likely written and passed examinations after undergoing “courses”, after all what “practical” experience of any real value can a trainee psychiatrist obtain?

At least your average medical student aspiring to eventually become a GP and perhaps later a specialist surgeon is exposed to on the job training. For instance they observe and later they themselves dissect cadavers while studying medicine. In this way they personally get to see a human heart, a liver, kidneys, lungs etc and are then able to see the difference between a healthy and a diseased organ. Not so the psychiatry student who can dissect any number of human brains but will still be unable to tell if the organ belonged to a bi-polar teenager or a homicidal maniac.

Your family doctor will usually refer you to an appropriate specialist if he/she is uncertain as regards a diagnosis. After x-rays, scans and blood tests, practical steps will be taken and if necessary corrective surgery will be performed. So when a heart surgeon opens a patient’s chest, he sees a heart and he knows what function this organ performs and how it operates. The same applies to other surgeons and other organs in our bodies.

However the same cannot be said when a “patient” is referred to a psychiatrist or a psychiatric facility. They cannot cut open a skull, expose a brain and remove that piece of it that holds the memory of a horrific incident of child abuse and torture. The most learned and experienced psychiatrist alive cannot operate on a brain and remove a haunting recollection of rape and physical abuse. He cannot remove the demons that have gathered within a brain which were caused by years of watching a drunk father knocking his wife’s head against a wall because she had no money to give him to buy liquor.

So other methods are tried such as asking questions about symptoms and medical history because there are no laboratory tests to diagnose mental illnesses. The psychiatrist bases his diagnosis on the person’s report of symptoms. So what happens if you lie to him?

The standard manual used by experts for the diagnosis of recognized mental illness in the U.S. is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorder (DSM), which is compiled by the American Psychiatric Association. So you are diagnosed by a manual!

Psychiatric diagnoses are not rooted in science but always in opinion. Worst of all these diagnoses always end up with a prescription of psychiatric medication. They are toxins that mostly disable your brain. None of them cure you but all of them give you a feeling that you have “improved” when actually all they have done is to dull your senses. The last time I visited my psychiatrist all he did was to write me another prescription before he turned to my partner and asked: “Would you like me to prescribe something for you to make you sleep?”

The use of psychotropic drugs by adult Americans increased 22 percent from 2001 to 2010, with one in five adults now taking at least one psychotropic medication, according to industry data. In 2010, Americans spent more than $16 billion on antipsychotics, $11 billion on antidepressants and $7 billion for drugs to treat attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Good money for some!

Best advice … Never ever give up by reducing yourself to a lifetime of psychiatric diagnosis.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:05 pm

Thank you JJ. Happens I was just thinking about this before logging in to FG today. That was a very interesting read and good advice.

jones jones;1450328 wrote: So other methods are tried such as asking questions about symptoms and medical history because there are no laboratory tests to diagnose mental illnesses. The psychiatrist bases his diagnosis on the personï¿½s report of symptoms. So what happens if you lie to him?

I did. I'm able to read people (might sound strange) and I adapt to them in a certain way. This is how come no one really knows what i'm like in real life, except my parents and OH. The psychologist never figured that one out.

jones jones;1450328 wrote: Worst of all these diagnoses always end up with a prescription of psychiatric medication. They are toxins that mostly disable your brain. None of them cure you but all of them give you a feeling that you have ï¿½improvedï¿½ when actually all they have done is to dull your senses.

I lost contact with my nan for many many year because she was on meds. She was a complete zombie. The psychologist i was seeing (well 2 of them) tried their best to get me on "brain meds", when I challenged them what were they going to solve because all I could think is that they would make you numb. They couldn't answer me.

I never went there again.

It turned out, I have a vitamin B12 deficiency. (which has an effect in so many places in the body).

My mum went to see a psychologist in 2009, after her 2nd brother committed suicide. (recommended by the GP). My mum ended up taking charge of the conversation and told the woman all the facts etc. of suicide and multiple suicides in a family.

Turned out this psychologist had no real life experience and just kept saying to my mum: ohhh dear I can't imagine what you must feel like!

She never went back after that.

Post by **jones jones** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:11 pm

Thanks for commenting Chloe.

It turned out, I have a vitamin B12 deficiency. (which has an effect in so many places in the body).

This is interesting because there is a whole litany of similar deficiencies that can cause an imbalance in our brain ... But I think that treating these would bring in much less income to those who "diagnose" mental illness.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:16 pm

jones jones;1450331 wrote: Thanks for commenting Chloe.

It turned out, I have a vitamin B12 deficiency. (which has an effect in so many places in the body).

This is interesting because there is a whole litany of similar deficiencies that can cause an imbalance in our brain ... But I think that treating these would bring in much less income to those who "diagnose" mental illness.

Well, my doctors were ready to put me on damaging medication, I had been on 5 different stomach medications before even a simple bloodtest was done.

In the end it cost over 2000 euro's, just to find out I have a vitamin b12 deficiency. It took them over a year to do a simple boodtest.

The bloodtest would have cost a few tenners at the most..

So there's your answer I guess. And in a way, I just lost a year of my life living in the fog that a b12 deficiency brings.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:24 pm

Shucks. I thought this thread was about magicians.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:48 pm

AnneBoleyn;1450343 wrote: Shucks. I thought this thread was about magicians.

I'm just glad he has issues with other than me, last time cancer research, this week psychiatry.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:54 pm

I don't see what's wrong in having a discussion about these topics?

I'm glad JJ posted this. In so many cases doctors just give out medication instead of addressing (if there is) the (real) problem.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:45 pm

Chloe_88;1450353 wrote: I don't see what's wrong in having a discussion about these topics?

I'm glad JJ posted this. In so many cases doctors just give out medication instead of addressing (if there is) the (real) problem.

Nothing is wrong, Chloe, it is an important topic. I just like to tease my JJ!

QueenBee · Post by **QueenBee** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:32 pm

Here is my take on things. I went to a Psychiatrist for a while. Hated going to her. I would go in, she would spend 5 or 10 minutes shuffling papers around and pretending to listen to me. Then take my $50 and send me on my way. Now, I was, and still am in a point in my life where I really felt I needed to talk out many serious issues. Yes, I am on medication for depression, OCD and stuff. So, I fired the shrink, and see a therapist (a licensed Social Worker). She actually sits with me for a FULL hour, listens, talks, and won't let me leave until I have a plan of action for how to deal with my current issues. Only then does she take my $50 and sends me on my way. Mental Health therapy is not for everyone, and should not be seen as a cure-all for all life's problems. But, for some of us, it helps, and is needed. There are quacks out there, and you just need to be savy enough to weed them out, and remember YOU are in charge.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:36 pm

Sounds like you went to a Freudian psychiatrist. They don't interact. I agree with your post.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:37 pm

Most medical professionals have developed quite a set of preconceptions by the time they start to practice, they are useless until they begin to re-think their education, and get to know a bit about the people they have to deal with in real life.

Some of them never get there.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:22 pm

In the US, all of the diagnostic codes used by psychologists, psychiatrists, insurance companies, etc. are contained in DSM. This book contains descriptions and differential diagnoses for each of the different "ailments". It is quite educational. The APA has treatment guidelines for most classifications. Several years back they began to lean toward meds rather than treatment for many problems, such as depression. This was a bit controversial at the time, but it was easy for them.

Lady J · Post by **Lady J** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:33 pm

I agree with Jj post about psychiatrists....they want to treat you with drugs and move on; let you tunnel away into a world of your own once well 'medicated' whether you want to or not.

Wandrin...you bring up some very good points.... "Several years back they began to lean toward meds rather than treatment for many problems, such as depression. This was a bit controversial at the time, but it was easy for them. "

Jj found an article on a woman who was abused by psychiatrists to a point that it became an experiment on a living, lively human being and I wonder for what benefit?

I hope he will post it next.

I saw a psychologist for about 6 months ... I fought going to him for quite a while cuz of my disbelief in them....but in the end he did help. My mind was scattered from too much work stress and personally disappointments. He did give me focus, without drugs (as a psychologist can not prescribe drugs) and helped me obtain a clearer view of where I stood in life at the moment.

I would think that is the way to go unless you have a really good friend....but sometimes an outsider can see you better then you can see yourself in times of despair.

Post by **jones jones** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:48 am

Chloe_88;1450353 wrote: I don't see what's wrong in having a discussion about these topics?

I'm glad JJ posted this. In so many cases doctors just give out medication instead of addressing (if there is) the (real) problem.

It is a very valid topic Chloe and is very important to those of us who suffer from psychological problems.

Don't judge Annie too harshly because as she says, she so loves teasing me and she has great empathy for her fellow men/women, believe me.

If on the off chance you were referring to post #6, you can just laugh that one off. It was made by a very silly earthling for should know better by now.

Post by **jones jones** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:50 am

QueenBee;1450373 wrote: Here is my take on things. I went to a Psychiatrist for a while. Hated going to her. I would go in, she would spend 5 or 10 minutes shuffling papers around and pretending to listen to me. Then take my $50 and send me on my way. Now, I was, and still am in a point in my life where I really felt I needed to talk out many serious issues. Yes, I am on medication for depression, OCD and stuff. So, I fired the shrink, and see a therapist (a licensed Social Worker). She actually sits with me for a FULL hour, listens, talks, and won't let me leave until I have a plan of action for how to deal with my current issues. Only then does she take my $50 and sends me on my way. Mental Health therapy is not for everyone, and should not be seen as a cure-all for all life's problems. But, for some of us, it helps, and is needed. There are quacks out there, and you just need to be savy enough to weed them out, and remember YOU are in charge.

Thanks for commenting QB. You have made very valid and sensible points.

Post by **jones jones** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:52 am

LarsMac;1450388 wrote: Most medical professionals have developed quite a set of preconceptions by the time they start to practice, they are useless until they begin to re-think their education, and get to know a bit about the people they have to deal with in real life.

Some of them never get there.

I have no doubt Lars that many are encouraged to prescribe drugs willy-nilly as they are beeeeg money spinners for you know who.

Post by **jones jones** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:56 am

Wandrin;1450390 wrote: In the US, all of the diagnostic codes used by psychologists, psychiatrists, insurance companies, etc. are contained in DSM. This book contains descriptions and differential diagnoses for each of the different "ailments". It is quite educational. The APA has treatment guidelines for most classifications. Several years back they began to lean toward meds rather than treatment for many problems, such as depression. This was a bit controversial at the time, but it was easy for them.

True ... and I mentioned it here.

The standard manual used by experts for the diagnosis of recognized mental illness in the U.S. is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorder (DSM), which is compiled by the American Psychiatric Association. So you are diagnosed by a manual!

I for one should hate to visit my GP and have him refer to a "manual" to make a diagnosis!

Post by **jones jones** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:02 am

Lady J;1450394 wrote: I agree with Jj post about psychiatrists....they want to treat you with drugs and move on; let you tunnel away into a world of your own once well 'medicated' whether you want to or not.

Wandrin...you bring up some very good points.... "Several years back they began to lean toward meds rather than treatment for many problems, such as depression. This was a bit controversial at the time, but it was easy for them. "

Jj found an article on a woman who was abused by psychiatrists to a point that it became an experiment on a living, lively human being and I wonder for what benefit?

I hope he will post it next.

I saw a psychologist for about 6 months ... I fought going to him for quite a while cuz of my disbelief in them....but in the end he did help. My mind was scattered from too much work stress and personally disappointments. He did give me focus, without drugs (as a psychologist can not prescribe drugs) and helped me obtain a clearer view of where I stood in life at the moment.

I would think that is the way to go unless you have a really good friend....but sometimes an outsider can see you better then you can see yourself in times of despair.

Thanks for your comments Lulu ...

"Thank the Pope", as Lola would have said, that the days of lobotomies, electric shock "therapy", insulin coma treatments and hydrotherapy routines are a thing of the past ... of they are past.

Would you do me a favour and post a link to the article you mentioned? You know me and links!!

Lady J · Post by **Lady J** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:38 pm

jones jones;1450409 wrote: Thanks for your comments Lulu ...

"Thank the Pope", as Lola would have said, that the days of lobotomies, electric shock "therapy", insulin coma treatments and hydrotherapy routines are a thing of the past ... of they are past.

Would you do me a favour and post a link to the article you mentioned? You know me and links!!

Sure thing Baby.....

This is a true story and a very sad one.

The Story of Gennie Pilarski | Sometimes Interesting

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:10 pm

jones jones;1450408 wrote: True ... and I mentioned it here.

The standard manual used by experts for the diagnosis of recognized mental illness in the U.S. is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorder (DSM), which is compiled by the American Psychiatric Association. So you are diagnosed by a manual!

I for one should hate to visit my GP and have him refer to a "manual" to make a diagnosis!

But your GP probably does refer to a "manual". The ICD-9 holds the standard diagnostic codes for medical conditions. These codes are used by doctors, hospitals, insurance companies, etc. Is it a 510.0 or a 510.9? By the way, the diagnostic codes from DSM are a subset of the ICD codes. I'm sure that there is also a manual for differential diagnosis and testing requirements for the medical codes and a different one to show what each insurance company requires and pays for.

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:53 am

Wandrin;1450419 wrote: But your GP probably does refer to a "manual". The ICD-9 holds the standard diagnostic codes for medical conditions. These codes are used by doctors, hospitals, insurance companies, etc. Is it a 510.0 or a 510.9? By the way, the diagnostic codes from DSM are a subset of the ICD codes. I'm sure that there is also a manual for differential diagnosis and testing requirements for the medical codes and a different one to show what each insurance company requires and pays for.

Maybe, but not while I'm in his rooms he doesn't.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:50 pm

jones jones;1450404 wrote: It is a very valid topic Chloe and is very important to those of us who suffer from psychological problems.

Don't judge Annie too harshly because as she says, she so loves teasing me and she has great empathy for her fellow men/women, believe me.

If on the off chance you were referring to post #6, you can just laugh that one off. It was made by a very silly earthling for should know better by now.

Sorry I was having a sh*tty day! Sorry Anne! I misread your post!

I was still so hung up on the death wish (or whatever you want to call is) from my co-worker last week, regarding people with ocd..

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:52 am

They are everywhere and many a time they don't know what they are talking about. I had a meeting at the school this morning and when I walk in there a 4 people there, Jake's teacher and 3 more. They say his handwriting is to messy. One of the people there was a psychologist......the school apparently has one on staff. She starts in about maybe the reason his handwriting is so messy is because that's the way he sees things in his mind and that is what's coming out on the paper. So I told them that his handwriting is messy because he hates doing schoolwork, he says it's boring, and he rushes through it to fast just to get it over. I then showed her some of the work I have been doing with him at home, telling him to take his time and write the best he could and she was astonished. She then changed her way of thinking completely but if I hadn't had that work to show them they would have wanted to do who knows what!

Post by **Chloe_88** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:59 am

Wow, hope that reminds me of something that happend to my brother.

he made a drawing and the school called my mum in, quite worried.

the paper was drawn in completely with blue/green colours.

the teacher thought there was something wrong with my brother, my mum asked him and he said: can't you see, its a swimming pool !

he had drawn the swimming pool as if you were looking at it from the sky.

the teacher then backed down, but she really thought at first there was something wrong with him..

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:05 am

It's weird how teachers can sometimes misunderstand. Jake's teacher is great, she's as sweet as she can be and tries really hard, which is a challenge for her I'm sure since she is hearing impaired. I was kinda taken aback that she would call in the psychologist about messy handwriting but I know she was just worried about Jake. She says he writes such detailed and imaginative stories. She said most kids just put in the bare facts of the subject but he adds so much more. She said it makes her feel bad that he's not getting credit for that because at that age they have to grade the handwriting too.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:03 pm

Chloe_88;1450353 wrote: I don't see what's wrong in having a discussion about these topics?

I'm glad JJ posted this. In so many cases doctors just give out medication instead of addressing (if there is) the (real) problem.

The main thing that worried me about the OP is that it appears to assume that all psychiatric training is mumbo jumbo - OK, you cannot look at a brain and immediately see what is wrong with it or what traumas have disturbed it but I will say this, the degree of advancement in psychiatry after one hundred years of true study is way in advance of the skill of the "doctors" after one thousand years of study.

Yes, psychiatry is a new science and gets things wrong - but it's far beyond the four humours and the use of sympathetic magic to cure diseases caused by the sins of the sufferer.

Yes, most psychiatrists are still treating the symptoms rather than the causes because we still do not know much about those causes - but do not dismiss it as useless or we will never get to the position where we can cure mental illness. Study and research, those courses and examinations that are so casually dismissed, are the way forward - not walking away from the subject and refusing to undergo diagnosis.

People suffering from mental illness need help - many will never recover without some form of help however uncertain the science behind it is. Just the thought that someone cares enough to try is a cure to some and, whilst I agree that they appear to be far too reliant on chemical fixes at the moment, there are times when drugs do provide a cure.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:32 pm

Well I posted from personal experience as you know.. the male side of my family, yes give them meds and psych help. 3 out of 4 are not with us anymore. So yes hopefully the 4th will be "saved".

it's just very easy giving out meds sometimes instead of addressing the problem.. which doesn't even have to be a "mental problem"

I like your post Bryn.. I just think that they have to be more carefull with handing out meds. Over here they hand them out like sweats.

How did it become so easy to hand out antidepressants like they are paracetamol?

Besides, I have more trouble getting paracetamol than any other drug in this country.. What went wrong there?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:50 pm

Chloe_88;1450939 wrote: Well I posted from personal experience as you know.. the male side of my family, yes give them meds and psych help. 3 out of 4 are not with us anymore. So yes hopefully the 4th will be "saved".

it's just very easy giving out meds sometimes instead of addressing the problem.. which doesn't even have to be a "mental problem"

I like your post Bryn.. I just think that they have to be more carefull with handing out meds. Over here they hand them out like sweats.

How did it become so easy to hand out antidepressants like they are paracetamol?

Besides, I have more trouble getting paracetamol than any other drug in this country.. What went wrong there?

I think you'll find that most antidepressants and the like are handed out by GPs without reference to trained Psychiatrists and that it's a case of too little time to spend on each patient - rather than an in depth diagnosis and then refer to the specialist (which, over here, is paid for by the GP) it's dish out a quick fix to get them out the door.

That, if nothing else, needs to be sorted out.

Post by **Chloe_88** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:56 pm

balls.. I had just written a reply and it just vanished on me..

anywho.. in short; i agree.. that that situation needs to be sorted.