Why we shoot people with knives

Captain Ray · Post by **Captain Ray** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:07 pm

This one is not for the faint of heart.. really.. don't look at this unless you plan on carrying a gun, and you don't think that there is any likelihood of ever having to shoot a bad guy..

A person can close 21' of space and be on top of you in less than 3 seconds.. That is roughly the amount of time it will take you to draw your weapon from your holster, aim, and pull the trigger. It's really a crap shoot as to who will win. That's why images like this need to be fresh in your mind.

If somebody points a knife at you.. shoot!! It's deadly force!! Don't waste a moments time thinking about it.

Seriously.. don't look at this link if you don't like the sight of opened flesh!

Fair warning.

Raymond

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:15 pm

Captain Ray wrote:

A person can close 21' of space and be on top of you in less than 3 seconds.. That is roughly the amount of time it will take you to draw your weapon from your holster, aim, and pull the trigger.

If I had any reason to carry a gun out of a direct result of fearing for my life, you can bet I would drill myself on drawing my gun faster than Clint Eastwood in Hollywood.

annabelle · Post by **annabelle** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:17 pm

I wouldn't think twice about shooting anyone who was comming at me with a knife. If it's a question of him or me, then NO contest!

Unfortunately, this is the UK and until they change the law, which I personally think wont EVER happen here, I'll have to rely on a pepper spray. No, hold that thought, they're considered an illegal weapon too.

Oh well, better pray I'm never attacked .

Captain Ray · Post by **Captain Ray** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:18 pm

K.Snyder wrote: If I had any reason to carry a gun out of a direct result of fearing for my life, you can bet I would drill myself on drawing my gun faster than Clint Eastwood in Hollywood.

Easier said than done I am afraid. If you carry concealed.. which I do, you have a shirt that needs to be gotten' out of the way, and a gun that needs to be drawn.. all this while you are really stressed out!! In practice I can do marginally better than three seconds.. but if the time ever comes.. three seconds would be pretty darn good IMO!!

Raymond

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:23 pm

I'm debating whether or not to open the link. I can handle any grotesque injury to an animal, but seeing human flesh cut is something else. You'd think as a vet tech, this wouldn't bother me, but it does.

Let me also say that, if someone were coming at me with a knife, I would not hesitate to shoot them for an instant.

Captain Ray · Post by **Captain Ray** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:24 pm

Don't open the link.. you know what it's going to look like. There's no sense in it.

Raymond

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:26 pm

Captain Ray wrote: Easier said than done I am afraid. If you carry concealed.. which I do, you have a shirt that needs to be gotten' out of the way, and a gun that needs to be drawn.. all this while you are really stressed out!! In practice I can do marginally better than three seconds.. but if the time ever comes.. three seconds would be pretty darn good IMO!!

Raymond

If you are allowed to carry a gun, then why conceal it?

Also, it seems to me as if it werent concealed, the offender in such a case would be more likely to refrain from attacking you......doesnt this seem logical?

Captain Ray · Post by **Captain Ray** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:29 pm

K.Snyder wrote: If you are allowed to carry a gun, then why conceal it?

Also, it seems to me as if it werent concealed, the offender in such a case would be more likely to refrain from attacking you......doesnt this seem logical?

Open carry is not legal in Oregon, unless you are a police officer, or an armed security gaurd in uniform.

But there is a pretty good argument that open carry would do much more to deter crime than concealed.. On the other hand.. criminals in Oregon are wise to consider that every other guy on the street might be packing...

Raymond

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:32 pm

BabyRider wrote: I'm debating whether or not to open the link.

Hes sliced open in about 5-6 different places, what appears to be up to about 2 inches deep in some areas. Not so much blood, but plenty of tissue to be seen. Its not that bad. Then again, I suppose some are more queasy than others.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:34 pm

Captain Ray wrote: Open carry is not legal in Oregon, unless you are a police officer, or an armed security gaurd in uniform.

But there is a pretty good argument that open carry would do much more to deter crime than concealed.. On the other hand.. criminals in Oregon are wise to consider that every other guy on the street might be packing...

Raymond

Well, if I were in fear of my life, that is just one law I wouldnt mind breaking.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:41 pm

K.Snyder wrote: Hes sliced open in about 5-6 different places, what appears to be up to about 2 inches deep in some areas. Not so much blood, but plenty of tissue to be seen. Its not that bad. Then again, I suppose some are more queasy than others.
Is it some attack that was caught on video or what??

Captain Ray · Post by **Captain Ray** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:49 pm

Well.. as much as I hate admitting this.. I made a mistake. Oregon does allow open carry. I found at OFF and Packing.org that I was wrong about that..

My mistake..

Raymond

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:51 pm

Captain Ray wrote: Open carry is not legal in Oregon, unless you are a police officer, or an armed security gaurd in uniform.

But there is a pretty good argument that open carry would do much more to deter crime than concealed.. On the other hand.. criminals in Oregon are wise to consider that every other guy on the street might be packing...

Raymond

the latter has been shown to be far more effective. with open carry, the parasites know who *not* to mug. so if someone doesn't have a gun on their hip, they're fair game. with widespread concealed carry, the vermin have no way of knowing who might be able to fight back - so it provides further disincentive for them to attack anyone at all. it does rely on widespread disemmination of the knowledge that private citizens may carry concealed - but that's not hard, since the anti-gun-nuts *always* scream that the streets will run red with blood if a concealed carry law passes (which it never does).

i took a series of defensive gun handling courses from an expert more than a decade ago. one of the exercises was a demonstration of the one noted - having two people stand 21 feet apart, one armed with a fake knife, one armed with an affirmatively disarmed gun. in this experiment, the person with the gun would actually have the gun out and in hand. at whatever moment the knife wielder chose, he would begin to run at the person with the gun. in most cases, the person with the gun would not be able to pull the trigger before the person had advanced more than half way - a mere ten feet, and with arm's length, putting the knife a mere seven feet away. that's how much time it takes just for the mind to engage from seeing the perp begin to advance.

god forbid you miss on the first shot, or the gun jams - you're toast.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:55 pm

BabyRider wrote: Is it some attack that was caught on video or what??

I dont know BR, you may be better off asking Captain Ray about that. From what I see, the victim, has some pretty illustrious tattoos which tells me that he is no stranger to the streets. From this, I am assuming this is a sort of gang related incident, but I could be wrong.

PS: They are pictures in a slide show format. I have looked at them again, and the cuts are deeper than I had realized -- hes sliced pretty good.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:56 pm

Captain Ray wrote: This one is not for the faint of heart.. really.. don't look at this unless you plan on carrying a gun, and you don't think that there is any likelihood of ever having to shoot a bad guy..

A person can close 21' of space and be on top of you in less than 3 seconds.. That is roughly the amount of time it will take you to draw your weapon from your holster, aim, and pull the trigger. It's really a crap shoot as to who will win. That's why images like this need to be fresh in your mind.

If somebody points a knife at you.. shoot!! It's deadly force!! Don't waste a moments time thinking about it.

Seriously.. don't look at this link if you don't like the sight of opened flesh!

Fair warning.

Raymond

I did not look at your pic. We have a loaded gun in our bedroom - unless the grandkids come over and then we unload it. I have been assaulted several times in my youth and I would NOT hesitate to pull the trigger. I know that sounds cold and heartless. If you come into my space with the intention of harming me...............you are freaking dead........period............I will do endure that ever again.............you best kill me on the spot.

NO MORE............NOT EVER AGAIN

Captain Ray · Post by **Captain Ray** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:01 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: I did not look at your pic. We have a loaded gun in our bedroom - unless the grandkids come over and then we unload it. I have been assaulted several times in my youth and I would NOT hesitate to pull the trigger. I know that sounds cold and heartless. If you come into my space with the intention of harming me...............you are freaking dead........period............I will do endure that ever again.............you best kill me on the spot.

NO MORE............NOT EVER AGAIN

I don't blame you a bit. I would do the same.

Raymond

Captain Ray · Post by **Captain Ray** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:21 pm

I feel the same Clancy.. You have not just a right, but a responsibilty to protect yourself, and those around you. It's your duty, as it is mine. The good guys will win as long as people like you and I have that understanding.

I am not a very nice person.. I am nice to my daughter, and my son.. my woman, etc... I am not very nice to criminals.

Raymond

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:57 pm

Captain Ray wrote: I feel the same Clancy.. You have not just a right, but a responsibilty to protect yourself, and those around you. It's your duty, as it is mine. The good guys will win as long as people like you and I have that understanding.

I am not a very nice person.. I am nice to my daughter, and my son.. my woman, etc... I am not very nice to criminals.

Raymond

Agreed........

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:13 am

Ive seen wounds like this. A long time ago a buddy brought me downtown to buy some smoke. The door we knocked on was answered by a young guy who had been sliced open with a machete because he threw his neighbors dog out an 8th fl window. Someone comes at me with a machete, I wont have a gun, so I run, just not in the habit of needing one, and I generally dont put myself in the situation where I need one. We do have a 9mm in the house and Ill do whatever it takes to protect this family.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:34 am

nvalleyvee wrote: I did not look at your pic. We have a loaded gun in our bedroom - unless the grandkids come over and then we unload it. I have been assaulted several times in my youth and I would NOT hesitate to pull the trigger. I know that sounds cold and heartless. If you come into my space with the intention of harming me...............you are freaking dead........period............I will do endure that ever again.............you best kill me on the spot.

NO MORE............NOT EVER AGAINGood to see you back, NV. Stop leaving! :p

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:03 am

Captain Ray wrote: Easier said than done I am afraid. If you carry concealed.. which I do, you have a shirt that needs to be gotten' out of the way, and a gun that needs to be drawn.. all this while you are really stressed out!! In practice I can do marginally better than three seconds.. but if the time ever comes.. three seconds would be pretty darn good IMO!!

Raymond

Wouldn't you say that when you carry, you are much more aware of your surroundings? Personally, I figure that being aware and recognizing danger would generally allow a person prep time and at least the chance that he/she could broaden their 7 yard distance from the threat.

But then again, maybe only in a perfect world.

Captain Ray · Post by **Captain Ray** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:22 pm

Maybe.. sometimes....

I carry most of the time, I like to think I keep pretty aware of my surroundings.... looking for "danger," but I am no different than anybody else.. I might be looking up in the sky daydreaming about women, or more likely.. more guns... and then "WHAMO!!" there you are...

Seven yards is a statistic.. We use it to make practice as realistic as possible.. and keep it safe. It would probably be that If I ever had to shoot a bad guy.. it would be a lot closer in than 21'.

On the other hand.. I shoot from 50 yards too.. (Incidentally, I am not a very good shot at 50 yards.. that is a long way with a handgun!!) But that is for target practice.. I would have a difficult job trying to convince the DA why it was necessary to shoot a BG from 50 yards.

Raymond

cars · Post by **cars** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:07 pm

K.Snyder wrote: Hes sliced open in about 5-6 different places, what appears to be up to about 2 inches deep in some areas. Not so much blood, but plenty of tissue to be seen. Its not that bad. Then again, I suppose some are more queasy than others.

That's what I was thinking, with those gashes that deep, why was that guy not a bloody mess?

cars · Post by **cars** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:55 pm

A civilian carrying a gun on their person, really needs to have a responsible, chilled out, temperament. Years ago, I used to have a friend (small in stature) that always was packing! (he had a gun permit) Because of the fact that he had a snubnose 38 holstered on his ankle, he seemed to think it made him "10" feet tall! Whenever we went out to clubs, restaurants, or any type of gathering, he always seemed to be just looking for trouble. He was rude, boysterious, nasty, & even pushy, no matter how big all the other guys were. One time when I was with him, he actually pulled his gun out on a group of really big guys in a club. Well, ofcourse that was the eaquilizer for the moment, that gave us time to get out of there before we got all banged up! After that, I told him never to do anything like that again, or else I was not going to hang with him any more. He was better, (not good) for about 3 months after that. Then one night at a bar, after he & this other (big) guy had a few, one thing led to another & out comes his gun. This time, he actually fires the gun off up into the ceiling. By this time, the barkeep called the police, so we hightailed it out of there before the cops got there. So about two weeks later, he wanted to go bar hopping again, & I told him forget it, he was not going to do that again with me there! Next day, I heard through mutual friends, that my now ex-friend was shot that night (ironically with his own gun) & was in the hospital. So I went to visit him in the hospital, (cause we used to be friends) and by the way he was still talking crazy things, I knew that it was safer & better for me to unfriend him, so I did. I heard he went to Vegas when he got out, & I never heard from him again.

Captain Ray · Post by **Captain Ray** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:15 pm

Alcohol and guns don't mix. If your friend was packing in a bar... well I'm not sure what the laws are in Fl. but usually that is not legal.. it certainly is not legal to be intoxicated and carrying.. at least where I live...

It sounds like your friend was on a suicide mission.. thank goodness he didn't get killed.. hopefully he is in jail so that law abiding citizens who carry legally won't have to shoot him.

Raymond

Singh-Song · Post by **Singh-Song** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:25 pm

Of course, if you're annoyed about not being allowed to pack weapons in the UK, you could just convert to Sikhi, because we're allowed to carry knives too! Of cpurse the limit's supposed to be 6 inches long, but I know people who carry 14-inch swords openly (for self-defence, of course). Easier still, something you can do in less than a second; just keep a level head, kick the advancing knife-man in the balls as soon as he gets in range, then watch him slice his own balls off...

Skyhawk691 · Post by **Skyhawk691** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:55 am

I've seen those photo's before on another Web Site and I believe it said the victim was a Police Officer in the line of duty when he was attacked by a knife wielding perp. The Officer did NOT respond in time with deadly force and that was the result. A lesson to All Law Enforcement personnel.

"An Armed Society is a Polite Society.

Manners are good when One may have to

back up his Acts with His Life."

-Robert Heinlein

Carl44 · Post by **Carl44** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:12 am

I WANT ONE OF THEM THERE KNIFE GUNS

ITS GOT TO BE EASIER THAN USING BULLETS

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:15 am

jimbo;668464 wrote: I WANT ONE OF THEM THERE KNIFE GUNS

ITS GOT TO BE EASIER THAN USING BULLETS

They are quieter too.:wah:

[love]light · Post by **[love]light** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:05 am

this thread made me think of an old friend's band, A Gun That Shoots Knives.

Myspace.com/agunthatshootsknives

el guapo · Post by **el guapo** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:36 am

so what faster gun or knife

i say knife watch this

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:31 am

Skyhawk691;668429 wrote: I've seen those photo's before on another Web Site and I believe it said the victim was a Police Officer in the line of duty when he was attacked by a knife wielding perp. The Officer did NOT respond in time with deadly force and that was the result. A lesson to All Law Enforcement personnel.

"An Armed Society is a Polite Society.

Manners are good when One may have to

back up his Acts with His Life."

-Robert Heinlein

Ever read his later books? He got heavily into incest as well.

A civilized society has no need for guns.

Skyhawk691 · Post by **Skyhawk691** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:49 pm

Bryn Mawr;668623 wrote: Ever read his later books? He got heavily into incest as well.

A civilized society has no need for guns.

Robert Heinlein spoke his mind and was not afraid of the consequences that resulted. I myself, think the man was highly intelligent and a Thinker.

As far as his personal life, I have never heard of the accusations you posted on here and think it's BS until you back it up with something credible...

You live in a society where guns are ALREADY outlawed...too bad for you..

""Better to be judged by 12, then carried by 6""

Think about that next time your a victim of crime...

Carl44 · Post by **Carl44** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:53 pm

Skyhawk691;668691 wrote: Double Post..please Delete..mods..thank-you

you can say that again buddy

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:21 pm

Skyhawk691;668690 wrote: Robert Heinlein spoke his mind and was not afraid of the consequences that resulted. I myself, think the man was highly intelligent and a Thinker.

As far as his personal life, I have never heard of the accusations you posted on here and think it's BS until you back it up with something credible...

You live in a society where guns are ALREADY outlawed...too bad for you..

""Better to be judged by 12, then carried by 6""

Think about that next time your a victim of crime...

I never made and accusations about his private life - if you read my post I reference his later books where he quite clearly advocated incest. Work your way from the Number of the Beast through to To Sail Beyond Sunset and see what I mean.

I live in a society where the worst crime of violence I've been involved in was a punch in the face when I stood between a drunk and the friend he was abusing - the drunk was promptly thrown out 'cos we don't appreciate behaviour like that round here.

Anyone carrying a gun is acting illegally - it make it a damned sight easier to control than having to wait until they shoot someone before you arrest them.

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:27 pm

I've been shot at, missed twice and hit once. It ain't that bad. The time I got cut with a butcher knife hurt far worse.

:-2

Skyhawk691 · Post by **Skyhawk691** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:10 am

Accountable;668882 wrote: You can delete yours yourself. Bottom right corner. Click Edit & you'll see the delete option.

Thank's for the help..Have a Great day!

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:44 am

Bryn Mawr;668623 wrote:

A civilized society has no need for guns.

but gun crime has risen significantly since the ban in your country...:-2

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:46 am

sunny104;669126 wrote: but gun crime has risen significantly since the ban in your country...:-2

That's one of the myths promulgated by the gun lobby in the states. Gun crime here is mainly related to gang activities and the illegal drugs trade. We do not live in fear of being attacked by criminals with guns

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-vict ... gun-crime/

Contrary to public perception, the overall level of gun crime in the UK is very low â€“ less than 0.5% of all crime recorded by the police.

Do bear in mind the gun ban was brought in in response to public demand. In fact there are calls nor for air guns to be banned as well-or at least have the age at which they can be legally owned increased to 21. That too is by public demand.

Knife crime is a problem in some areas but at least if someone comes at you with a knife you have a chance of outrunning them.

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:53 am

gmc;669323 wrote: That's one of the myths promulgated by the gun lobby in the states. Gun crime here is mainly related to gang activities and the illegal drugs trade. We do not live in fear of being attacked by criminals with guns

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-vict ... gun-crime/

.

I didn't know the gun lobby here had any power over the BBC. That's where I've seen most of the articles regarding gun crimes.

even the website you provided says this: Despite these figures, the number of overall offences involving firearms has been increasing each year since 1997/98.

PS gun crime here is also mainly related to the bad guys. We don't live in fear of being attacked either.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:00 pm

sunny104;669337 wrote: I didn't know the gun lobby here had any power over the BBC. That's where I've seen most of the articles regarding gun crimes.

even the website you provided says this: Despite these figures, the number of overall offences involving firearms has been increasing each year since 1997/98.

PS gun crime here is also mainly related to the bad guys. We don't live in fear of being attacked either.
Sic em my little Annie Oakley.

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:09 pm

YZGI;669346 wrote: Sic em my little Annie Oakley.

:p :wah:

Skyhawk691 · Post by **Skyhawk691** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:29 pm

gmc;669323 wrote: That's one of the myths promulgated by the gun lobby in the states. Gun crime here is mainly related to gang activities and the illegal drugs trade. We do not live in fear of being attacked by criminals with guns

Do bear in mind the gun ban was brought in in response to public demand. In fact there are calls nor for air guns to be banned as well-or at least have the age at which they can be legally owned increased to 21. That too is by public demand.

Knife crime is a problem in some areas but at least if someone comes at you with a knife you have a chance of outrunning them.

What a crock of BS....Like the NRA has any influence in a country that has already outlawed guns....hahahaha what a JOKE!!! LMFAO!!!:wah::wah:

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:34 am

sunny104;669126 wrote: but gun crime has risen significantly since the ban in your country...:-2

I'd be interested in your source :-

Alan Travis, home affairs editor

Friday January 26, 2007

The Guardian

Gun crime in England and Wales dropped by 14% last year, the murder rate was down by 9% and overall crime has remained broadly stable, according to Home Office figures published yesterday.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:40 am

sunny104;669337 wrote: I didn't know the gun lobby here had any power over the BBC. That's where I've seen most of the articles regarding gun crimes.

even the website you provided says this: Despite these figures, the number of overall offences involving firearms has been increasing each year since 1997/98.

PS gun crime here is also mainly related to the bad guys. We don't live in fear of being attacked either.

One of the main reasons the ban on guns was brought in was the fact that the rate of gun crime was rising at an unacceptable rate. That rate has fallen as a result of the ban on guns.

Because of the profile of gun crime in this country, the BBC report virtually every instance of it so yes, you see lots of reports. To know the state of play, do not look at individual reported incidents, look at the stats.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:41 am

Skyhawk691;669386 wrote: What a crock of BS....Like the NRA has any influence in a country that has already outlawed guns....hahahaha what a JOKE!!! LMFAO!!!:wah::wah:

and your point is?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:32 am

Skyhawk691;669386 wrote: What a crock of BS....Like the NRA has any influence in a country that has already outlawed guns....hahahaha what a JOKE!!! LMFAO!!!:wah::wah:

I never hinted, insinuated or otherwise claimed that the NRA had any influence in this country. Almost invariably it is an American that comes out with the line about how gun crime in the UK has rocketed since the gun ban. Many Americans have that impression because of what they read in their own press and the myth put out by their gun lobby that we are all terrified of criminals with guns because the nasty govt has taken away our right to defend ourselves. The other myth is that you get prosecuted and go to jail if you act in self defence and hospitalise an attacker. They seem to be unable of grasping that people who call for us to be able to carry guns in this country are usually regarded as cranks and exactly the kind of nutter that should not be allowed one and that the gun ban was brought in by fearsome public demand.

In the year ending 31 March 2005 provisional figures show a:

* 16% reduction in the use of handguns

* 9% reduction in robberies involving firearms

* 6% reduction in serious injuries from firearms offences

Measures are being taken to curb it. We have a growing problem with guns being used by criminal gangs but gum crime is still a tiny fraction of all crimes. I rise in number from 3 crimes reported to 6 being reported gets headlines announcing a 50% increase in crime. Factually accurate, statistically accurate but also misleading in that it is only part of the picture. The average male in the US has less than two legs. That is factually accurate, statistically correct but doesn't tell the full story does it?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:39 pm

Why we shoot people with knives

Not me...I always use a poison tipped dart.