koan;1369463 wrote: I've no idea how you get that from what I said. Taking away right to choose means eliminating abortion as an option. What I've said is that both men and women should have the right to choose.
For every situation there are those who can manipulate circumstances to make it a very bad thing. That's what makes law and legal wording complicated. No matter how well they word something, someone somewhere will twist it around or find a hole in it. Most of the bad situations you are talking about would not be an issue as the woman would never tell the father she's pregnant in the first place. Paperwork reads "Father: Unknown"
medical notes for an abortion do not carry that kind of information. Only birth certificates. Are you trying to say that boyfriends, husbands, family members do not recognise the early symtoms of pregnancy?
Remember what ablow suggests...that she would be charged with wrongful death.......who''s going to perform an abortion if the girl doesn't have consent from the male partner?
abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
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fuzzywuzzy
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littleCJelkton
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abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
K.Snyder;1369470 wrote: The preaching is all very well CJ because the majority of people, to significant degree I might add, doesn't like the idea of using abortion like quarters at a car wash.
You're talking about moral standards that begin at child birth ie.. integrity, honor, respect blah blah blah as opposed to sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse and these "decisions prior" aren't related by knowledge of just the consequence in having a child.
Then there's the implementation of such a piece of legislation to make abortion illegal that is just so damn obscure that the only people that can imagine it is the narrow minded BS of logic that only the religious extremists can concoct in those tiny brains of theirs.
There's much more to women becoming pregnant than just this fascination with the act of conception. What if the male lies about wearing a condom? What if the male wants the child but neither can support the child? The actual health of the child yet the male still wants him/her because all he cares about is his own selfish desires which probably more than 90% of the time is the very reason the woman became pregnant only to have the tenacity to force her to birth? Perhaps there's an age limit, 12 perhaps? No? 13, 14?
Abortion isn't just abortion, it's a piece of the lives of these individuals who suffer it.
As I've said, the males want to have the child is equally as valid as the woman's but to actually go through with such a law as illegal abortion is utterly retarded because it's obvious the factors having been ignored
Well that is one of the problems I would believe we have then either not having any moral standers (honor, integrity, respect, honesty, loyalty, etc...,,) or if you learned any of those standards not applying them to your decision making process about deciding who your attracted to and whether on not to act upon said attraction, and all the decision in between and prior to that. Now I don't think that every abortion is an act that shows low moral standards in every woman that performs one, what I believe is too great of a percentage of abortions being made where the female does have low or no moral standards, and/or has got pregnant by a guy who has low moral standards. I believe it is that percentage of abortions which I think is the fuel for people like ABLOW to start spewing out bad Ideas, unfortunately people like him who want to attack this problem with a chainsaw in stead of a knife or scalpel hit a nerve and they attack the problem of that person's bad Ideas in the same manner and in the process of hacking at each other for our bad ideas or ideas within our ideas that are bad I believe we loos sight of the problem we were trying to fix in the first place. Though I believe that type of fighting is what occurs all the time in our governmental legal system and a big reason why it is so flawed but that is a topic for another thread.
You're talking about moral standards that begin at child birth ie.. integrity, honor, respect blah blah blah as opposed to sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse and these "decisions prior" aren't related by knowledge of just the consequence in having a child.
Then there's the implementation of such a piece of legislation to make abortion illegal that is just so damn obscure that the only people that can imagine it is the narrow minded BS of logic that only the religious extremists can concoct in those tiny brains of theirs.
There's much more to women becoming pregnant than just this fascination with the act of conception. What if the male lies about wearing a condom? What if the male wants the child but neither can support the child? The actual health of the child yet the male still wants him/her because all he cares about is his own selfish desires which probably more than 90% of the time is the very reason the woman became pregnant only to have the tenacity to force her to birth? Perhaps there's an age limit, 12 perhaps? No? 13, 14?
Abortion isn't just abortion, it's a piece of the lives of these individuals who suffer it.
As I've said, the males want to have the child is equally as valid as the woman's but to actually go through with such a law as illegal abortion is utterly retarded because it's obvious the factors having been ignored
Well that is one of the problems I would believe we have then either not having any moral standers (honor, integrity, respect, honesty, loyalty, etc...,,) or if you learned any of those standards not applying them to your decision making process about deciding who your attracted to and whether on not to act upon said attraction, and all the decision in between and prior to that. Now I don't think that every abortion is an act that shows low moral standards in every woman that performs one, what I believe is too great of a percentage of abortions being made where the female does have low or no moral standards, and/or has got pregnant by a guy who has low moral standards. I believe it is that percentage of abortions which I think is the fuel for people like ABLOW to start spewing out bad Ideas, unfortunately people like him who want to attack this problem with a chainsaw in stead of a knife or scalpel hit a nerve and they attack the problem of that person's bad Ideas in the same manner and in the process of hacking at each other for our bad ideas or ideas within our ideas that are bad I believe we loos sight of the problem we were trying to fix in the first place. Though I believe that type of fighting is what occurs all the time in our governmental legal system and a big reason why it is so flawed but that is a topic for another thread.
abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
littleCJelkton;1369556 wrote: Well that is one of the problems I would believe we have then either not having any moral standers (honor, integrity, respect, honesty, loyalty, etc...,,) or if you learned any of those standards not applying them to your decision making process about deciding who your attracted to and whether on not to act upon said attraction, and all the decision in between and prior to that. Now I don't think that every abortion is an act that shows low moral standards in every woman that performs one, what I believe is too great of a percentage of abortions being made where the female does have low or no moral standards, and/or has got pregnant by a guy who has low moral standards. I believe it is that percentage of abortions which I think is the fuel for people like ABLOW to start spewing out bad Ideas, unfortunately people like him who want to attack this problem with a chainsaw in stead of a knife or scalpel hit a nerve and they attack the problem of that person's bad Ideas in the same manner and in the process of hacking at each other for our bad ideas or ideas within our ideas that are bad I believe we loos sight of the problem we were trying to fix in the first place. Though I believe that type of fighting is what occurs all the time in our governmental legal system and a big reason why it is so flawed but that is a topic for another thread.Moral integrity is defined after one acts, not before,..
but in any case, I'd suggest that this discussion is limited to America, which is fine just that it's hard to come to a real consensus when not everyone contributing to the thread is American.
From a world perspective I'd say your "percentages" are quite wrong, dreadfully wrong.
Arguing these percentages in America some may say has it's fog but here's an excellent article from 2008... Why Have Abortion Rates Fallen? - TIME
Now what we have are gung ho extremists taking all of the credit and wanting to get rid of Planned Parenthood.
You just watch the rates of abortion increase back to the numbers of the 80's and early 90's all courtesy of those wanting to make abortion illegal which is the exact same thing as saying "abortion rights in the hands of MEN."
but in any case, I'd suggest that this discussion is limited to America, which is fine just that it's hard to come to a real consensus when not everyone contributing to the thread is American.
From a world perspective I'd say your "percentages" are quite wrong, dreadfully wrong.
Arguing these percentages in America some may say has it's fog but here's an excellent article from 2008... Why Have Abortion Rates Fallen? - TIME
Now what we have are gung ho extremists taking all of the credit and wanting to get rid of Planned Parenthood.
You just watch the rates of abortion increase back to the numbers of the 80's and early 90's all courtesy of those wanting to make abortion illegal which is the exact same thing as saying "abortion rights in the hands of MEN."
abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
koan;1369514 wrote: Pro choice is about abortion being legal, not about granting a woman the sole right to make that decision. It was a better name than Pro Death.
I presented circumstances where allowing men input would by bypassed by single women claiming they don't know who the father is and you transformed that an interpretation in which a missing father is assumed to be against the abortion instead of for it. You are welcome to argue with yourself.
You're playing with semantics there I think. The woman has to have the right to choose whether single or not. If you pass a law that both parents must agree to an abortion then in circumstances where there is no father identified the abortion will not be allowed - the implication being the woman wants to prevent the father from knowing and preventing the abortion. That would be the reality of how it would be used by those who want to prevent someone having an abortion at any cost. The notion that she has no idea who the father might be would merely confirm her as a person of low morals. It's not an issue we are going to agree on.
posted by littlecjelton
Now I don't think that every abortion is an act that shows low moral standards in every woman that performs one, what I believe is too great of a percentage of abortions being made where the female does have low or no moral standards, and/or has got pregnant by a guy who has low moral standards.
You know it's really sad reading something like that. Talk about letting what you know get in the way of reality. The simple fact is most women getting abortion are not making the decision lightly nor simply because they have low moral standards. All you have to do is look at the statistics and you realise there is a lot more going on than a few low lives that can't take responsibility for their actions. At the very least they are having to face up to the consequences.
I presented circumstances where allowing men input would by bypassed by single women claiming they don't know who the father is and you transformed that an interpretation in which a missing father is assumed to be against the abortion instead of for it. You are welcome to argue with yourself.
You're playing with semantics there I think. The woman has to have the right to choose whether single or not. If you pass a law that both parents must agree to an abortion then in circumstances where there is no father identified the abortion will not be allowed - the implication being the woman wants to prevent the father from knowing and preventing the abortion. That would be the reality of how it would be used by those who want to prevent someone having an abortion at any cost. The notion that she has no idea who the father might be would merely confirm her as a person of low morals. It's not an issue we are going to agree on.
posted by littlecjelton
Now I don't think that every abortion is an act that shows low moral standards in every woman that performs one, what I believe is too great of a percentage of abortions being made where the female does have low or no moral standards, and/or has got pregnant by a guy who has low moral standards.
You know it's really sad reading something like that. Talk about letting what you know get in the way of reality. The simple fact is most women getting abortion are not making the decision lightly nor simply because they have low moral standards. All you have to do is look at the statistics and you realise there is a lot more going on than a few low lives that can't take responsibility for their actions. At the very least they are having to face up to the consequences.
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littleCJelkton
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abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
gmc;1369589 wrote: You're playing with semantics there I think. The woman has to have the right to choose whether single or not. If you pass a law that both parents must agree to an abortion then in circumstances where there is no father identified the abortion will not be allowed - the implication being the woman wants to prevent the father from knowing and preventing the abortion. That would be the reality of how it would be used by those who want to prevent someone having an abortion at any cost. The notion that she has no idea who the father might be would merely confirm her as a person of low morals. It's not an issue we are going to agree on.
posted by littlecjelton
You know it's really sad reading something like that. Talk about letting what you know get in the way of reality. The simple fact is most women getting abortion are not making the decision lightly nor simply because they have low moral standards. All you have to do is look at the statistics and you realise there is a lot more going on than a few low lives that can't take responsibility for their actions. At the very least they are having to face up to the consequences.
As Koan said ""have fun arguing with yourself"" as you clearly didn't read the entirety of the quote and posted what it was out of context to give you something to argue with. Do you ever answer yourself though?
posted by littlecjelton
You know it's really sad reading something like that. Talk about letting what you know get in the way of reality. The simple fact is most women getting abortion are not making the decision lightly nor simply because they have low moral standards. All you have to do is look at the statistics and you realise there is a lot more going on than a few low lives that can't take responsibility for their actions. At the very least they are having to face up to the consequences.
As Koan said ""have fun arguing with yourself"" as you clearly didn't read the entirety of the quote and posted what it was out of context to give you something to argue with. Do you ever answer yourself though?
abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
littleCJelkton;1369596 wrote: As Koan said ""have fun arguing with yourself"" as you clearly didn't read the entirety of the quote and posted what it was out of context to give you something to argue with. Do you ever answer yourself though?
No of course not. I don't think there is any easy answer to the issue and anyone who thinks there is doesn't get the scale of the issue or is too ready to make assumptions based on what they "know" to be true, and make moral judgements about the actions of others based on little more than preconceived notions as to their character. You can't agree over everything, I will always oppose those with attitudes like yourself and koan and try and persuade you otherwise every time you choose to discourse on the subject - who knows you might start to change your opinion. If you are not interested in discourse with those who disagree with you and sometimes hold completely opposing opinions why bother posting on a discussion forum? Surely you realise what is going to happen? I join in threads I find interesting, naturally those often tend to be ones where there is disagreement and the ones that go on and on are where there is an awful lot of disagreement and yes i do have my favourite hobby horses - don't we all.
No of course not. I don't think there is any easy answer to the issue and anyone who thinks there is doesn't get the scale of the issue or is too ready to make assumptions based on what they "know" to be true, and make moral judgements about the actions of others based on little more than preconceived notions as to their character. You can't agree over everything, I will always oppose those with attitudes like yourself and koan and try and persuade you otherwise every time you choose to discourse on the subject - who knows you might start to change your opinion. If you are not interested in discourse with those who disagree with you and sometimes hold completely opposing opinions why bother posting on a discussion forum? Surely you realise what is going to happen? I join in threads I find interesting, naturally those often tend to be ones where there is disagreement and the ones that go on and on are where there is an awful lot of disagreement and yes i do have my favourite hobby horses - don't we all.
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Clodhopper
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abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
Like it or not, in the end the woman carries the baby and has the baby. Her final choice. Any interference with that right is tyranny. I don't like that situation, but it's better than giving the man a veto.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
Clodhopper;1369639 wrote: Like it or not, in the end the woman carries the baby and has the baby. Her final choice. Any interference with that right is tyranny. I don't like that situation, but it's better than giving the man a veto.
Secular does not necessarily imply hostility to God or religion, though some like to use it that way as an alternative to tolerating differing points of view, mMorality has many shades of grey
Secular does not necessarily imply hostility to God or religion, though some like to use it that way as an alternative to tolerating differing points of view, mMorality has many shades of grey
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Clodhopper
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abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
Secular does not necessarily imply hostility to God or religion, though some like to use it that way as an alternative to tolerating differing points of view, mMorality has many shades of grey
Agreed, but the problem here is abort or not abort, and who says so. Very black and white, and the only question is, who in the last analysis decides? I say the woman, because not only does she cary the child, the potential for blackmail and general abuse that exists if the father has a legal right is just horrendous. It imposes a form of slavery on the woman, and that to me is intolerable.
Agreed, but the problem here is abort or not abort, and who says so. Very black and white, and the only question is, who in the last analysis decides? I say the woman, because not only does she cary the child, the potential for blackmail and general abuse that exists if the father has a legal right is just horrendous. It imposes a form of slavery on the woman, and that to me is intolerable.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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fuzzywuzzy
- Posts: 6596
- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm
abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
You know something? I just had a thought . When I'm having sex and I'm screaming "oh my god, Oh god, come" I'm not calling out for the healing hands of jesus. Nor do I suspect my partner in this instance thinks of the angels in heaven although I do suspect he's thinking of the one before him . hee hee hee
but afterwards after much thought I may pray ..."oh my god I don't believe I actually had sex with that idiot."
And this I suspect is most peoples circumstance. Sometimes men AND women portray themselves in a certain light toward you simply to meet their own ends ...hence we have contraception and not punished for it anymore in terms of making you marry. We've all heard the term shot gun wedding, and mothers homes . Do we really want to go back to that state of affairs?
but afterwards after much thought I may pray ..."oh my god I don't believe I actually had sex with that idiot."
And this I suspect is most peoples circumstance. Sometimes men AND women portray themselves in a certain light toward you simply to meet their own ends ...hence we have contraception and not punished for it anymore in terms of making you marry. We've all heard the term shot gun wedding, and mothers homes . Do we really want to go back to that state of affairs?
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littleCJelkton
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abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
Despite some of the best efforts of some of the members on here to take sweeping generalities away form this debate used by most of us in this discussion(my self included), it appears that only the two polar opposite sides of this debate who get their opinion's heard, and the bigotry and hate each side has for each other I believe will continue the irresolution of this problem until something drastic occurs that make the to polar opposite sides agree on a final decision.
abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
The bigotry and hatred seems rather one sided, when was the last time a pro choice group murdered up a pro life advocate or tried to intimidate someone attending pre-natal classes?
abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
gmc;1369718 wrote: The bigotry and hatred seems rather one sided, when was the last time a pro choice group murdered up a pro life advocate or tried to intimidate someone attending pre-natal classes?
I suppose by the definition of "abortion rights" by some one could argue that the Tangut princess that castrated Ghengis Khan would have been viewed as both inappropriate and grossly overstated, although I doubt he'd ever attended pre-natal classes.
I suppose by the definition of "abortion rights" by some one could argue that the Tangut princess that castrated Ghengis Khan would have been viewed as both inappropriate and grossly overstated, although I doubt he'd ever attended pre-natal classes.
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littleCJelkton
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- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:57 pm
abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
gmc;1369718 wrote: The bigotry and hatred seems rather one sided, when was the last time a pro choice group murdered up a pro life advocate or tried to intimidate someone attending pre-natal classes?
I see that ALL THE TIME every person that thinks the baby should live is out there killing other people, Did you see that Mass Murder at the Planned parenthood clinic?
I will start Keeping score
Broad sweeping generalizations of biased anger: 1
Reasonable discussion of the topic's causes and how to fix them: 0
I see that ALL THE TIME every person that thinks the baby should live is out there killing other people, Did you see that Mass Murder at the Planned parenthood clinic?
I will start Keeping score
Broad sweeping generalizations of biased anger: 1
Reasonable discussion of the topic's causes and how to fix them: 0
abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
littleCJelkton;1369733 wrote: I see that ALL THE TIME every person that thinks the baby should live is out there killing other people, Did you see that Mass Murder at the Planned parenthood clinic?
I will start Keeping score
Broad sweeping generalizations of biased anger: 1
Reasonable discussion of the topic's causes and how to fix them: 0
Don't waste your time. We're probably not going to agree. Clodhopper summed it up beautifully
Agreed, but the problem here is abort or not abort, and who says so. Very black and white, and the only question is, who in the last analysis decides?
I would say the woman as well. Once you accept that right there might be a chance of taking steps to further reduce the number of abortions taking place. Experience shows that will happen with a more liberal and open approach to sex education.
I will start Keeping score
Broad sweeping generalizations of biased anger: 1
Reasonable discussion of the topic's causes and how to fix them: 0
Don't waste your time. We're probably not going to agree. Clodhopper summed it up beautifully
Agreed, but the problem here is abort or not abort, and who says so. Very black and white, and the only question is, who in the last analysis decides?
I would say the woman as well. Once you accept that right there might be a chance of taking steps to further reduce the number of abortions taking place. Experience shows that will happen with a more liberal and open approach to sex education.
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littleCJelkton
- Posts: 1215
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:57 pm
abortion rights in the hands of MEN.
gmc;1369735 wrote: Don't waste your time. We're probably not going to agree. Clodhopper summed it up beautifully
It's my time to waste
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It's my time to waste
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